Conversations: Go Ishii

0:00This is Daniel Galhardo and you're listening to the Tenkara Cast, a podcast about the simple Japanese method of fly-fishing, Tenkara. In the Tenkara Cast we'll be sharing information on techniques, history, philosophy, and Tenkara stories from anglers all over the world. This podcast is brought to you by Tenkara USA, introducing Tenkara outside of Japan since 2009. It's only possible we create content such as this podcast and videos because of your support. So we thank you so very much for purchasing Tenkara USA rods, lines, and flies. I hope you enjoy learning more about the simple method of fly fishing. So today I'm really excited we have here Go Ishii. He just arrived from Japan a few days ago in the United States. He spent a few days in Bozeman with a friend of his doing some Tenkara fishing out there. and Go Ishii is here in the office right now, just ahead of the 2015 Tenkara Summit. And we're going to be talking about Tenkara, his experiences with Tenkara in Japan, different teachers in Japan, and also what his views on Tenkara are and that kind of thing.

1:11So thanks so much for coming in, Go. Thank you for having me. Should I call you Ishii-san or Go? Just call me Go. Go? That's shorter and easier, I suppose. So that's going to be a little confusing when we go fishing. I'll just tell you go and you're going to think that I'm telling you to go ahead. It's a problem I've been having my entire life. So you might have to think of a nickname or something. Yeah, because otherwise it's like fishing with Ishigaki Sensei. He tells you go, go, go, keep moving. Because I played lacrosse. I started playing lacrosse when I was 13 or something. And I played until I was 30. But that really was a big issue. Because you hear people screaming go. And like, what, me? And it's not me, you know? That's funny. So we had some problems. but maybe, I don't know, Ishii, Go, whatever you want to call me. Yeah, well, and then Ishigaki-sensei, he tells people to call him Ishii, so that could be a little confusing too. Well, I'll call you Ishii-san. Okay, okay. Yeah, so thanks so much for coming. And, you know, listeners that are listening to this podcast episode right now, they might notice that you speak flawless English.

2:15You have no accent. How come? I don't. Wow, you speak really, really well English, you know, and I'm introducing you as coming from Japan. So I came to go to a boarding school starting out seventh grade, and that was back in 1991. And I ended up staying in the U.S. until I was 30, so that was 18 years. Okay. Returned to Japan to start a business back in 2008, got married to a second-generation Japanese American citizen. and so I'm just over there working on my stuff but I do get to go fishing, Tenkara fishing quite often so that's a bit of a trade-off for me but yes I did spend about 18 years living in the States. And when did you when did you pick up Tenkara? So I started fishing when I was three or four and I started out fishing by the docks and I saw the river flowing into the bay, the sea, and I was like, oh, maybe I'll try fishing there. And I just sort of worked my way up the stream and eventually ended up in the mountain streams.

3:20And that was when I was maybe eight. At first, I was fishing with bait, and there was no information available on Tenkara. And I was sort of flipping through this KDU mountain stream magazine, and I saw a picture of a man with a rod that had a cork handle and this visible, I think it was a yellow line, and there was a trout, you might not at the end of it. I was like, what is that? And I right away took my bay fishing rod, put some yellow line on it, and went out and bought some kebari. Tried to do it. This is when I was 10, and there was a lot of memory on the line. I didn't know how to straighten out, and I didn't know how to cast, and the experience wasn't very good at the time. But since then, it became a goal for me to sort of achieve tenkara techniques. So although I was going to school in the U.S., through my teenage years, I'd go back to Japan for summer vacations, you know, and go try tenkara.

4:27So after age 18 or so, I think I finally caught my first fish on a tenkara rod. And since age 21, I've been basically a full-time tenkara angler. And since you're 21, but you still lived in the States when you were 21. This is during the summer. And when I came back to the States, I didn't really fish tenkara at all. So this is me as a Japanese person speaking. So when I was in the U.S., I was doing other things. Of course, fishing has always been part of my life. So if I had the opportunity to go out, fish for bluefish or striper's notion, I did that with my buddies. So you'd go back to Japan, fish with tenkara, just on your own? Like was somebody teaching you? I tried to figure it out myself. And as I grew older, I found some older books and tried to do my research and figure out where to get the rods and whatnot. You know, so it was basically self-taught until very recently, about five years ago.

5:32And, you know, so like, let's talk about the time that you're kind of going back and forth until you're 30. So you go back to Japan, do some tenkara during the summer, come back to the States. Did you ever bring a tenkara rod back to the States in those times? I did just bring one rod to give as a present to a friend. Not for fishing. Avid fly fisherman. And he was like, you know, I just told him, hey, there's a method called tenkara. This rod is used for that type of fishing. Here it is. And no, I never did that. Okay. And so in the last five years or so, so we're talking 2010, you really kind of took the bug like big time. Oh, yeah. And started really delving deeper and deeper into the method, huh? Yes. So, see, I went back in 2008. the first year and a half I was really busy starting up my own business and couldn't really find the time for fishing but then my business grew I had more employees and more time for myself okay I'm going to do this Tenkara thing take it more seriously so and I started fishing in the Kanto region close to Tokyo and my house but then I wasn't really happy with the rods that were available on the market at the time.

6:52So I started looking online, and I found and heard about Masami Sakakibara. He was selling his own rods online. So I sent in an email and inquired about the rod. So I purchased it right away. In the process, they asked me to come to an event that was taking place in Tokyo. So I went to see that, and that's when everything started, and I started talking to Masami and all of his other students and other people in the Tenkara community in Japan. And, well. And here you are. Here I am. It's a recognized name. A lot of people in the online community now know your name because you post some good reports once in a while, and you've communicated with people as well. So you started learning with Sakaki Bada Sensei, Masami, that was like 2009 10 something like the nine or ten okay and I did kind of offer to them the idea of building a website mm-hmm and when you go get lessons when you go to one of his lectures you're usually with maybe 10 to 15 others and you don't really get that much information out of him because there are so many people mm-hmm I want to get like I want to steal and like know everything that he knows how can I do that so I offered him hey maybe we can work on this website thing together and I'll do the English version for you no charge but maybe you can teach me one-on-one for a few seasons yeah and that was so we made that deal nice he was like on my back teaching me everything that he knew about Tenkara for two seasons or so and was very helpful it really changed my fishing entirely and the best thing that came out of it really was that more so than the techniques or knowledge um people you know i got to meet the core group of the japanese tenkara community and they're all wonderful so yeah that's how you and i met i uh through dr ishigaki well and actually with masami yeah it was two years ago i believe when when we first met in person, I was visiting, spent some time fishing with Ishigaki sensei, who you also know and learned with, and then went out and joined you with Sakakibara-san and fished together.

9:17So Sakakibara-san is the first person that you kind of learned directly from besides book. And then you also got to connect and learn from other people like Ishigaki sensei, right? And along with other people that used to, You've heard about Team Oni, the guys that spend a lot of time with Masami. Some of them maybe 15 years. And they're all amazing, amazing anglers, not just for the techniques, but also for the depth of knowledge of the wilderness, the river, the ecosystem, the fish behavior, everything. And when you go on fishing outings with them, you don't just go fish during the day and come back you spend two three nights with them so we have this drinking session after the day the day of fishing where you get well you share information but at the time i didn't have much to offer so i was more of a recipient of this knowledge but that really broadened and widened my knowledge in tenkara and japanese streams all together so yeah and it's always amazing to watch a group of people you know they have a lot of experience know the water like especially sure a lot of the technique a lot of the casting but then even if you fish with them for a while like you know i've had the pleasure to fish with uh sakakibata some for a while uh but then like just watching how they approach water and how they approach each little situation a little bit differently and there's so much that you start internalizing and learning over the years it's Now, what are the, you know, like, you know, with your experience learning from Sakakibara and then Ishigaki and perhaps other people, do you see a lot of different styles of fishing between the Tenkara anglers in Japan?

11:05Everybody's different. You know, it really shows on your character, personality more than anything. Maybe your physique, your size shows on your techniques. even all the people I spent time with under Masami Sakakibara you figure you know the group of 20-30 guys they were all taught by the same guy they fish similarly no each one is very unique and different that you can't imitate another person's fishing and you also the great fun in fishing is to develop your own style and to reflect your ideas onto your fishing as well so i think that's the fun in fishing because if it was just about catching fish um you get pretty old pretty quickly oh yeah and i think just trying to copy somebody's style right yeah get old and i you know i was thinking about this the other day too a friend of mine mentioned you know like instead of looking at all the fish in a stream as the fish you kind of start looking sometimes as individual fish you know maybe like one fish is going to take one fly presented in a certain way another fish is just not interested in eating and and you start looking into fishes and individuals too and it I think there's a cool kind of match that happens between people that have different styles with the individual fish to each I've practiced tenkara on a big like fish farm and where they have no fish to be stocked stock the river with and there's hundreds and thousands of them and you cast a fly I take the hook part off so it's just a kebari without the hook and just to see how they respond.

12:40Sometimes a movement can spook a fish, but the safe movement can entice another fish to grab the kebari. And it's really interesting to see the individuality in a fish behavior as well. Yeah, and there's a saying in Japanese, and it's a little bit of a play on words. Tenkara has ten colors. You probably have heard of that. Wasn't there a Japanese way of saying that too? I think there was a Japanese term. Yeah, Ishigaki-sensei. I'm Japanese, but I'm not too familiar. You've been in America for a few days now. But essentially it kind of means ten colors. Oh, yeah. 10 persons. 10 persons. It might be pronounced differently. So 10 persons, 10 colors. 10 persons, 10 colors, because everybody has a little bit of a different way of doing it. Yeah, and, you know, like I always like to say, sometimes people might have misinterpreted, you know, like the stories that we're sharing as you must fish in this way.

13:42And it's never really been the intention. It's more like sharing how people are doing it. Because I know everybody's going to tweak it. You know, everybody's going to make it their own in a way after some time. And we talked about it earlier. You could go out, you know, fish on that river in a very specific way with a specific fly and do great and go back the next day thinking you're going to do the same. No. And it could be entirely different. So you constantly have to adjust and adapt to the situation. The learning process is the problem-solving process is the most wonderful thing. Yeah, I think so, too. It's just like trying to figure out, you know, like, and we can look at problem solving in a couple of different ways. You know, sometimes, you know, traditionally in Western fly fishing, like a lot of the problem solving comes as solving the equation of what is the fly that's going to attract the fish. And then in Tenkara, it might be a little bit of a different way of thinking about it. I think, you know, what is the technique?

14:44What is the presentation that's going to entice the fish? and um well everybody there's in fishing because we're all humans we've never become a fish before every now everything we know about fishing is well i would say almost based on human assumptions right absolutely um this fly works because of this and for that person it may have worked because the person knows how to use that fly and he might say use this fly because you'll catch fish but another person might use the fly differently and maybe not see the kind of success the first person did so developing your own style is not just fun but it's also important i think to successful fishing yeah and it becomes this you know kind of a sometimes a self-fulfilling kind of or self-reinforcing cycle i had a great conversation with morgan lyles from the book simple flies you know about this where you know the the reinforcing thing like sometimes you have this one fly and you use it and you catch fish and you assume that's the fly and sometimes you start having doubts about other flies as well so there's always this and it's good to like not stay in the comfort zone for too long i think just kind of once in a while experiment a little bit and even i do that even though i have like four variations of one fly that i use you know like the same one used by Ishigaki Sensei, one by Mr. Amano.

16:13Once in a while, I'll kind of experiment and I'm absolutely not above changing flies if somebody gives me a fly to use and see what happens as well. It makes me think. Yes. I went on an outing with my friend Kura-san. He's a very amazing angler who I think his cast is probably the most gentle and subtle cast I've seen of all anglers and he was a little bit upstream from me and he was catching fish left and right i wasn't really doing great that day so i went after hey what are you using show me what you got you know and he was like oh i'm just using this like hey can i have that i was like sure and i go out and try and so kura-san is still catching more fish and myself just fishing without confidence like do am i doing something wrong and i think it's really in a technique he knows or he knew how to use that specific fly and I didn't, you know, and that was the difference. And it just makes me, the intriguing part of fishing is really that uncertainty or differences in our individual techniques or presentation and it's confidence level really that dictates your fishing more than anything.

17:29Now, so you live in Tokyo. Yeah. And, you know, there's not a whole lot of mountain streams right in Tokyo. Where do you go fishing usually? Actually, you'll be surprised if you look on Google Maps. There's a section of Tokyo that's all mountainous, almost like New York. You know, you figure, oh, New York City, it's a big city. You have no nature or natural environment. You go upstate, it's all about wilderness, you know? Yeah, and I guess I forget how big and sprawling Tokyo is, too. We're not talking about the center. Right, right, sure. How far of a drive from the center of town? But still, without traffic, one and a half hour. Okay. Usually two to two and a half because getting out of city is just a big hassle. And that's still within Tokyo, the prefecture of Tokyo. Yes. Wow. So anywhere between two hours. But see, when I select rivers during the season, I really depend and rely on the information from my other anglers that I know.

18:31So we all go to different parts of Japan, fish on different rivers, and try to brief everybody about the current conditions, kind of how the system set up. And it's really nice because, oh, okay, I thought it might be good here, but maybe it might be worth the drive to get out to that section of Japan five hours away. So the furthest I have gone yet is about a nine-hour drive away from Tokyo. Which direction? North or south? In the Kansai region, so to west of Tokyo, about 10 hours or 9, 10 hours. Wow, okay. Wow, that's amazing. Yeah. And was the fishing really good when you drove 9 hours to go fishing? Actually, I've been to that river. I actually go about once or twice a year. On some occasions, it's fantastic. Well, it's hard to tell with nature. It can be great one day. Next day, it might be just very quiet. So if fishing isn't great, I'll just, you know, shift my mind and focus on drinking and barbecuing afterwards.

19:36And actually that kind of, you know, brings up one thing that I wanted to talk about. And we talked a little bit about on the drive here today, you know, just about the socializing. It's one of the things that I love to do when I go to Japan. It's much more than just the fishing. And I think sometimes we lose sight that there's all this stuff around fishing that makes the actual fishing really interesting. And I think early on when I started fishing, we'll just focus on Tenkara. Maybe when I started fishing Tenkara, I just wanted to catch fish anyhow. And after I felt like I could catch fish constantly with confidence, I think I wanted to catch more fish. How many fish can I catch in a day? But then after a while, you just realize, okay, this is kind of tiring. It's not all that challenging, exciting. I just want to catch a bigger fish. And you go for the bigger fish, and you catch a few big fish. Okay, it's still fishing. And eventually, you just realize fishing is just fishing.

20:40It's very satisfying. It's a great activity to do, but you want a little bit more than that. And for me, what makes fishing the most exciting activity is because I get to see or meet these wonderful people through Tenkara, like you. You know, if I didn't fish Tenkara, I wouldn't be here right now. So this being able to relate to people because you share the same passion is really, for me, the greatest part of what I enjoy the most about Tenkara. Yeah, that's, you know, and I think for, you know, I went through a period, I think, where fly fishing was a little bit of a solitary sport, you know, something that I, and I wanted to do it by myself. I kind of wanted, I saw it as a time of going out and kind of having the time for myself, you know, to be in my own mind. And once in a while, I still really like to do that, actually. Of course. But I think there's something really cool about sharing it with other people, sharing the experiences before or after and during fishing.

21:43Right. Of course, I do go fishing on my own sometimes, and that's when I really feel like I want to go and challenge a stream and challenge myself and catch as many fish in ways I want to catch them. There are those times, of course. But then if I was just out there fishing by myself every time, I don't know, I don't know if I would enjoy it as much. so you really enjoy the what do you enjoy more you know like when you when you go out with a group is it the the fishing together with other people like being in the stream and kind of watching other people or is it the drinking a barbecuing that happens afterwards both of course but when you're fishing you learn from watching others no okay um do i know how to cast like he just did or if you see somebody make a mistake, maybe I need to be conscious about these things. So it teaches you from watching others fish, of course.

22:48And, of course, the drinking and barbecuing afterwards is always amazing. Yeah, definitely. Now let's talk a little bit about flies. Do you have a go-to? There's the whole concept where a lot of tank-cut anglers, not all of them, but a lot of the very experienced tank-cut anglers, they have their one kind of fly pattern. Maybe they vary it a little bit, but not much. They kind of stick with it, and usually they tie one, whatever, is in their box. What is your approach to flies? I think at first, because information was limited for me, I just tried to imitate what I saw in books and then on websites that people are posting, you know, these pictures of kebari, how to make them. and just try to do one kebari, try to catch fish with that. And you go through phases, and you see somebody like Masami fish, catch an amazing fish. Like, what did you use? And show me how to make that.

23:49And you just kind of get stuck on the idea of maybe using that fly. But as you progress, you end up developing your own thing. It just sort of happens one day, okay, I know this thing works. 90% of the time. And, of course, I mean, so I have that fly. So it's one fly pattern. It's one fly pattern. And people talk, you know, the misconception about using just one fly is that you can take one pattern and change the volume of body, head, halcal size to hook size. to make him function in different ways. So you could either do that or maybe add some colors and make it. So still my flies are all made the same way, just with different things, different kinds of hackle. Yeah, and I don't think variations. I believe most people understand there's some variations on the flies.

24:52We've talked a lot about, for example, the box of Ishigaki Sensei. and say like you know he'll have some flies that are a little smaller some that are larger most of them are like a black thread with brown hackle but he's he has some that are like a gray thread with ginger and primarily because he says he gets bored of tying the same fly but also because for example we did an event here recently and whatever material you know you give to him that is kind of like what similar to what he uses you just use whatever is at hand so there's a lot of the variation or even like in one like uh with the feather for example sometimes instead of like you know like we have the dry fly hackle like really even kind of like kind of hackle but there's also like really cheap kind of hackle that you can buy and within one feather you might get two or three different styles of flies right because you might have a stiffer barbues shorter and longer maybe softer kind of barbues on the fly so i think the variation is right and i think just playing with things and just coming up in your own style with your own ideas.

25:59And you go out and actually catch fish with it. It's quite satisfying, isn't it? Do you have a preference? And we'll try to post a picture on our website, tenkarausa.com forward slash podcast of the flies that you use, perhaps. We'll try to get a picture of that. But how would you describe the fly that you give a preference? I mean, what size, what color, if you have a preference, do you usually go with? It's not so much the size. I think the overall silhouette. And there are, like, different conditions, like wind, speed of a current. But is it, so, like, with the hook size, let's say, I mean, do you have a preference for the hook size? Well, I don't use anything smaller than size 16. I don't use anything bigger than size 6. So I'm in between those. The ones that I use the most are between 14 to 10. Yeah, and that's pretty common, I think. That's what I use, too.

27:01Now, when it comes to, let's say, the thread, should I assume, is it a reverse hackle fly, the sakasekebari that you use? I would say when I'm making the hackle, and I start from the top of the head, Okay. And when I put on the head, I put on a little bit of the head and then I put on the hackle. And when I, after I put on the hackle, I make the body. So I sort of push the hackle reverse upwards. So it sort of looks like a sakasa. Yeah. But when I come back to the head, I push it back again. So I have this mixture of some hackle going the reverse way and some hackle going the regular way. So kind of like two plates, one on top of the other. That's the first thing that came to mind. I can make a gesture with my hand here, but listeners cannot listen to that. So if you were to put two plates, one on top of the other.

28:02And that's sort of what it looks like to me at least because that's how I make it. I forget. I don't know why I started doing that. Yeah, I was going to ask you, is there a reason you came up with that? Or just something that... Something that just happened through watching other people make their erg flies. Or, you know, I've, of course, tried reverse hackles and regular hackles and straight hackles. And just sort of got confused, you know, and just say, oh, I'll just put everything together. Yeah. And when I'm on the river fishing, if I feel like the hackle is not the appropriate size or volume, I will just pluck some out. Yeah. Okay, make it a little thinner. Make it a little thinner. So I try to put on a little bit extra when I'm making the Kimari. Okay. And I adjust on sight to the current. Do you ever, like I've done this before multiple times, even nowadays, sometimes I'll feel like, you know, maybe like something with a shorter hackle that will be a little bit more like a slimmer kind of nymph. Do you ever clip the hackle around as well?

29:03Yes, yes. and especially in really Japanese streams are very fast and sloped so if the stream if the volume of the water is quite significant and the water is really fast if you have too much hako it will skid a little bit too much it's hard to keep the kebari or fly in the lane because it bounces back and forth if it's too much hako and I would be fishing from upstream okay um fishing from well fishing towards fishing upstream casting upstream casting upstream in fast current is very difficult because fly just flows down a little too fast because there's a speed of the current and also you have to add the speed of the fly coming back your way with the weight of the line so that's that so you have to drag from your rod tip well the line will start It's sagging and bringing the fly a little bit faster than the current. So even if the fish did come out, it's more difficult to successfully hook the fish.

30:06So in those situations, I think it's better to kind of curl around so that you don't spook the fish and sneak in. Yeah, go fishing from upstream. And cast it downstream and present it that way. And if the water is too fast and it bounces too much, even if the fish did come out, it's difficult for the fish to grab it accurately. And I want to keep the fly in that lane as long as possible. So those times I would just pluck all the hackle from the bottom. So the hook of the fly almost works like a fin on the surfboard, and it helps keep the fly in that zone. Interesting. I haven't really played with that. I'll have to give it a try. I do plug my hackle. You know, sometimes I'll just kind of cut all around it to make it so that, yes, in fast water in particular, you'll kind of not have so much resistance to go down. Occasionally I'll do that. But I haven't done just plucking the bottom part. I'll have to play with that. And I think that's a good point, too, you know, just having that adaptability.

31:08You know, one thing that I like about the Tenkara flies is they're really versatile. You know, you can do a lot with that fly. It's not imitating a particular bug, but it's kind of like passing by as any other. kebari, your fly, and Tenkara is all about the presentation. It's not about the fly. It's about presentation. So you just work with your fly to make it work with your presentation. Yeah, that's a great point. Now, in terms of fishing in different places, You mentioned driving nine hours in one particular instance in Japan or a couple times a year. Sometimes people think that all the streams in Japan are the same and there's not much variety. But how would you describe the variety of rivers and streams? They're not all small. They're not all steep, right? Okay, some streams you can fish in waters maybe that are like three feet wide, a couple inches deep.

32:11and you'll be surprised how big of a fish you can find in there. We've done those little creeks too, and there are guys that will fish in really big, big, fast mainstreams. And I don't know how many rivers we have. Yeah, there's a lot. Something up in like 20,000, 30,000 plus, I think, and each river is unique and different. Yeah, I mean, like in Japan, And at least 70% of the country is covered in mountains. And any time you look at any mountain, it's going to get all this water, make little washes and streams. There's so much water there. Right. And we tend to go back to rivers where we had good fishing experiences. Of course, we all do. But every now and then you try to venture out and make new discoveries. But the first time when you, well, I wouldn't say always, but usually the first time on that new river, you're not going to do as well as others who have fished on that river.

33:11Sure. Because even when you're fishing for the same species, say yamame, they come out a little bit differently. And I think it's because of maybe different human pressure, maybe the speed of current. Faster rivers, I think fish tend to hurry more. slower rivers i think give us the more time to be more cautious and i've noticed too like even like actually i was just noticing that a few days ago we had a little bit of a drop in temperatures last week and then it came back up uh but once in a while i noticed that like the same stream same fish the fish just become a little bit more sluggish in their takes you know even uh not usually of course and when the water is really fast but a couple weeks ago the fish here in Boulder Creek, they were like really aggressive, like they were exploding under strikes. Right. And then as temperature dropped and I noticed a few fish just kind of coming slowly for the fly and kind of trying to take it. So it's always a little different. The presentation has to be different too, because what I did when I noticed the first fish coming up slowly, you know, I just, I was actually fishing from mostly like across, maybe a little bit upstream from the fish and kind of doing like what we call a dead drift, but just a little bit slower than the current.

34:25you know just kind of trying to let's just for an example here let's say the current is moving at you know 10 feet per second or something maybe my fly you know just kind of trying to keep it moving at eight feet per second or something like that and all of a sudden giving the fish a little bit of a better chance to take the fly so that's something you do in japan as well i'm assuming and if all the streams were the same we would get bored really quickly yeah one of the you know i I talked about how important it is for me to go see my fishing buddies, but it's also important for us to change the scenery as well. And each river has its own water color, different rocks, river beds. Fish look different too by the river. And so every stream is different. We have a ton of them. so but see if you look at map of Japan you'll see how many most of the green stuff you see on the map it's all mountains we're 73% mountainous terrain and that's why population is so heavily concentrated on flat surfaces in like Tokyo and Osaka but we also have a lot of mountains that vary from narrow to wide to short to deep to everything.

35:57And you just came back from fishing Bozeman, Montana. Yeah. You were visiting a friend over there for a few days. And, I mean, the waters there, most people, of course, when you mention Montana, they're thinking big waters. Madison River, Gallatin, all those big kind of waters. Do you find some waters like that in Japan as well? Yes, we do. Maybe not so much in terms of ideal rivers for tenkara fishing. You could fish tenkara. I mean, we do that just to change the scenery. but when the river gets really big you either have to be willing to wade up to your neck you know and some rivers are pretty sketchy or dangerous to be in so we i try to avoid those but we have those options available so yeah and you know like sometimes there's bigger rivers that we fish within car but i think a lot of times it's personal preference what what are the types of waters that you really like fishing in, right?

36:59Like, I love mountain streams. Boulder Creek, to me, is perfect. And Tenkara was essentially designed for those mountain streams, and that's where it performs the best, I think. I think so, too. I always like to say that's where it's going to shine the best, more than the other types of fishing as well, because mountain streams, I don't think there's a tool that compares with Tenkara. It's the vertical relationship to the surface in the fish. Yeah, just keeping the line off the water on the other side of the current. Absolutely. Now, on your presentation for the Tenkara Summit coming up on Saturday, we're going to be talking about fishing around Japan and the fish. I mean, do you have a favorite place that you like to go to sometimes, even though you like to vary scenery, or a favorite fish that you like to pursue? Do you? Well, Japan has very distinct four seasons. So my favorite river to fish in changes from season to season.

38:01Some of my favorite rivers are basically unfishable in the springtime because there's too much snow runoff. Water temperature is too low, and there's too much water. So I save those rivers for July, August. And so it depends. Yeah. Now, you know, it's been interesting. So I've heard from a few people in Japan like that. There's been this revival in interest in Tenkara. You know, I think part of it since we introduced. Thanks to you. Well, thank you. You know, but I think since like we started introducing it here, you know, people are like, oh, we can, you know, this is from Japan and it's cool over there. It must be cool. So some people kind of taking it up. Do you see some of that? Absolutely. And we use the word gyaku yunyu. It's when something from Japan is re-imported into Japan, so Tenka is becoming that. So it's being brought back in again from the outside. It's from Japan, but it's sort of being reintroduced from the outside. What is the term again? Gyaku, so gyaku, reverse.

39:02Gyaku is reverse. Yunyu is import. Okay, interesting. Any other examples of things that have been re-imported to Japan, you think? um maybe honda motorcycles yeah watches that aren't sold in japan like casio watches that aren't sold in japan that's only sold in europe you know if you get them in japan it's a new product interesting yeah so tenkara is a new uh new effect yeah in re-importation the amount of exposure tenkara is getting especially in magazines is ridiculous it's every single magazine that comes out during the season is on about tenkara and that um is absurd because we tenkara was so small you know like back when i started i had a hard time finding a picture of a man fishing tenkara but now you see it everywhere it just sort of happened in the last four or five years since you started Tenkara USA. And how do people or how let's ask how do you feel about that like you know more and more people looking up at this Japanese method of fishing. I think it's wonderful you know because it is my passion it's great to know that there's more people out there practicing it although I do kind of fear that there's going to be more competition in the reverse but that's okay we all we have high level of competition fishing in Japan anyways you know where there's door guys then the fly fishermen and the bait anglers are always present so more tenkara anglers you know it doesn't bother me at all that paradox i mean both you and i really like sharing tenkara or fishing with a lot of other people but at the same time we do have a little bit of this fear that there's going to just be more people in the water yeah but that's okay because once you get to you'll get to a point one day just you you will be more keen on fishing that hard to catch fish. I want to be able to catch fish that others can't.

41:01And that's like the ultimate goal I think that people would reach eventually. Because if you're just catching fish all day it'll get bored. Maybe going a little farther too. I think once you start doing it, maybe start venturing out a little bit longer. What about, do you have a sense of how the older generation of Tenkara anglers feels about this method being introduced in the United States. How do you think most people think or feel about Tenkara becoming so popular outside of Japan? Are they proud of it or not too happy? People that know how to use the internet, I'm sure they're seeing how it's done, and I'm sure they're happy with it. I'm not sure if a lot of those older generation tanker anglers, they're from the mountains. They're wild and outdoors experts, but I'm not sure if they're really up to date.

42:07Except for the ones that I visited, I guess. And I usually ask them the questions like, how do you feel about this being introduced? Of course, and those experts we get to see and meet are present because they're willing to promote themselves. there may be lots of amazing anglers deep in the mountains that nobody knows about yeah yeah it's uh you know i don't know if you've had a the chance to go to like hagiwara area you know that's where mr amano is yes people know of him he's not online or anything but there's also a saiki-san up in kurobe you know who supposedly knows hooks 98 99 fish out of 100 okay he's a third generation professional angler, although it's part-time. Yeah. So he catches Iwana professionally for he runs a guest house. Oh, he's still doing that? He still does just four months of July and August. So if he has seven guests, he'll go out at around 4.30, comes back with Iwana, seven Iwanas of the same size. And if there's 20 guests, he'll go out, same time, come back with 20.

43:12No kidding. He's that confident in himself to do that. because most places... So you're here. I haven't actually met him. I wonder, I'm going to have to look him up. I wonder if he... Because I've seen that in a couple of Ryokans, like a couple of gas houses in Japan. If they're close to a river, they'll have a fish tank outside with water running right from the stream so they can keep fish alive. So I wonder if you might be doing something like that. Oh, no, no, no. This is way up in the Alps, Japanese Alps, and there's no access to really anything. You have to kind of bring everything in on a helicopter. No kidding. Right. And there's no, but the stream is probably not too far from him, I would imagine. Right. Yeah. That's cool. And the reason why he nose hooks is if you hook it on the side, because bone structure-wise, it's more tender and soft. He has to yank the fish out of the water and catch it in his hand. Because if the fish touches the water, he has to rinse it. And if you rinse the fish, the slime, when you roast it slowly, it becomes crunchy.

44:16You have to take that off. So in order to give the best quality Iwana, grilled Iwana to his guests, he has to hook the fish and catch the fish in midair, basically. Wow. Okay, I think we're creating a legend here. I'll have to watch that. I love to witness this myself, too. Maybe when you come back next time, we can go together. Yeah, look him up, yeah. But so he nose hooks so that when he yanks the fish, he doesn't ruin the aesthetics of the fish, you know, when he serves the fish. Yeah, because you're serving, you don't want to have, like, an extra hole in there. And I wonder, so if he's in the Kurobe area, too, there's the last commercial angler that retired. So his father was Sonehara-san. Sonehara, yeah, Bunpei Sonehara. So they all fished in the same Kurobe sections, but they had their own territory. Oh, interesting. You fish this section of the Kurobe, and I'll fish this section.

45:16So they had that. I think there was three of them. Okay, interesting. So it's still kind of alive. And he's the grandson of the one that used to fish with Toyama Shinawemon. Oh, the guide for Mr. Sato. Yes. Really? Yeah. Okay, so we're going to have to seek the history out. because I always, for most of the research that I've done, I thought the last commercial angler had retired. Yeah, he's part-time. Yeah, and I guess if he's only catching for a few guests that are staying there, it's a little different from how it used to be done. That's very cool. I'm glad you bring that up, so look him up. And now in terms of teaching more people like you, you also kind of help with some of the people in Japan. I try because I know a lot of people maybe feel, I just thought maybe some people feel like they're information deprived or, you know, they want to get more source information from its source type thing. So if I'm available, I have been quite busy the last few years. So, you know, I can't, I have to attend to my work first.

46:19But if I do have the time, of course, any time I would love to support. Yeah, that's very generous of you to get time to teach people. Yeah, that's awesome. Awesome. Now, what do you, you know, like there's a lot of, you know, it's a challenge. Like we were talking a little bit earlier, you know, educating people here in the United States and outside of Japan about what Tenkara is. It's not how it's done. I mean, you know, all these things because we're sharing a culture that was not known outside of Japan until very recently. What do you think? Like, do you think we're kind of on the right track? Do you think people are kind of getting what Tenkara, how Tenkara is and that kind of thing? Or do you think there might be some confusion out there? That's something I'm looking forward to find out at this summit. Yeah. Because I have met, you know, you and others who actively promote Tenkara. And they obviously understand Tenkara quite well. But I haven't really met the average Tenkara angler in the U.S. yet. Yeah. So I don't really have an opinion or any knowledge of that at this point.

47:22No, I think it'll be a fun opportunity on Saturday. I know a lot of people are looking forward to meeting you. I got several messages already. Thank you. That'll be really fun. Yes. Now, what do you, you know, like, I think we all kind of have this passion for Tenkara. We like doing it. What are, you know, like your, what would you like to tell people, like, why they should go out fishing? You know, if somebody is just kind of curious about Tenkara or fly fishing in general. I mean, what is it that they are missing out if they're not fishing? Well, number one thing is environment, more so than the gear. I love the beautiful mountain streams, the forestry mountains, and the process of – there are, you know, some dangers and risks in going into the mountains, but doing your own research about protecting yourself from a bear attack or a bee attack.

48:26It is a lot like going deep into the mountains hiking. And then Tenkara is also the most effective in that environment, happens to be. So you can enjoy fishing, very efficient and effective fishing, in that beautiful and wonderful environment. It's like, why not do it? Yeah, I agree completely. And actually, I just remembered one of the questions I wanted to ask you, too, about your equipment. I mean, you don't have to get too specific, and you might vary it, maybe you don't, but what are your favorite rod lengths, type of line and line length, and then tip it and fly? How would you describe the main lengths of the rigs? Well, because I fish, I don't fish so much in really small creeks anymore. Fish tend to be smaller. You could hurt them with the hook. Sometimes the hook would go through the eye or you can brain hook them.

49:29And so I've sort of shifted more towards not the biggest of fish, but the fish I like to catch the most are 25 to 30 centimeters. So about 12 inches or so. 12 inches or so. So when they get too big, they're just heavy. They pull hard, but fish of that size, like 12 inches or so, they are extremely agile. And when you catch them in fast streams, it's very challenging and exciting. So I look for those kind of fish. So inevitably, you have to go to a certain size stream. So nowadays, I've been using longer rods between 4 to 4.5 meters. Okay, so you're looking at 13 to maybe 14 and a half feet. And some people have sent questions to me or others about, hey, what can I do to cast a longer line? They just want to go longer and longer on the line.

50:30And it's really a mistake because the biggest advantage Tenkara has, like I said earlier, is this vertical relationship to the surface of the water. Even if you could cast a longer line, you lose control of the fly. It's what happens after the kebari, the fly, lands on the surface. You want to be able to direct it so that it stays in that current, the lane or the zone. Yeah, usually I try to tell people, go gradually until you see you have this sweet spot. But don't try to go long lines just because you can. I think you start losing something like that. Even guys like Masami Sakakibara, he'll say, okay, I can cast a long line, but I won't have the control of the line. Yeah, I think there's a sweet spot. What is your preferred line length? So if I'm using a 4-meter rod. So just over 13 feet. My casting line would be about 4.5 to 5. Okay, so if you're using a 13-foot rod, then you're using, let's say, 14 to 16 feet of line approximately.

51:32And if your tippet is too short, then because you're trying to keep your casting line off the water, it comes back to you too quickly. You can't keep it in the water or that zone too long. You could practice and work with a very long tippet, like 2 meters. Wow, okay, so almost 6 feet of tippet. I do that sometimes if I just want the extra distance or if I don't want to spook the fish. Because then the tippet will also anchor in the water and not kind of come back to you so fast. And sometimes the casting line, if it's bright and the water is really clear, and I don't want to show them too much of the casting line, I make the tippet longer. But do you usually, like, you know, I think we've probably learned from some of the same people, so I usually stick with about four feet of tippet, so a meter and a half. A meter, a meter and a half would be my average as well. Okay, yeah. And then occasionally, like maybe here, like in Spring Creek, very clear water, I'll go for a longer one.

52:33So the same. And then on the fly, you talked earlier about fly size 12 being kind of the average between 14 and 10. And if you're going to use a really small fly, you kind of have to reduce the size of your tippet as well. Yeah. So for tippet diameter, I don't know if you're familiar with the X system. I might use 5X, which is about 5 pounds, 0.8 in Japan. So about the same. 5X is usually my standard high pressure, like Itoshiro. I'll maybe go down to 0.6 or 0.5. Okay, a little bit thinner. Big rubber, if I know all of the chances might be thin, if I know that there is a potential 15 to 20-incher, I'll push it up to 2.0 or 1.5. Wow, okay. So you're looking at, I'm guessing here, 3X. Something like that. I don't have a table with me. Because if you do get that fish, you don't want to lose it. It's not every day on 10-caro rod you catch those big fish. Sure, yeah. And usually I stick 5X.

53:33It's kind of my usual. And then if I'm going places to have bigger fish, 4X is what I usually use, which is probably a little, just about 6 pounds, 6.5 pounds. I think that's perfect for most mountain stream fishing. Yeah. But, yeah, anything else you'd like to tell people? I don't know. It's been how long since you brought Tenkara into the U.S.? It's been six and a half years now. Well, hey, that's only six and a half years. I just can't wait to see. Eventually, we're going to see some amazing anglers come out of the U.S. soil. I'm just waiting, and more products as well. I think it would be really exciting if one day we have great anglers who can come out and teach us how things can be done. and rods maybe that are better than, you know, like the ones we can get in Japan. I think this is really a wonderful opportunity for us anglers everywhere, you know. Yeah. Because it's, before this big Tenkara movement, it really was hard to find products for Tenkara.

54:34Well, I'll be giving you our latest rod release, the Sato. We'll see if you think of that one. Thank you so much. But I think you might be wishing for too much to have somebody coming from here to there to teach anybody. You never know. I'll assist Dr. Ishigaki on his clinics and that kind of thing, but I don't think... I'm sure there are many wonderful... It's all about the knowledge of the river. If you're a great fly fisher man, going from a fly fishing rod to a tanker rod, yes, it's a transition of technique, but your wealth of knowledge still can be translated or shifted. Absolutely. Well, thank you so very much for sitting with me. We've got, you just arrived here in Boulder. We've got a couple of days of fishing, three or four days of fishing ahead of us. Thank you for lunch. Yeah, and a few more lunches ahead of us as well. So, yeah, I appreciate you sitting down and talking about your experiences. Thank you for this occasion. Perfect.

55:35Well, let's try to fish soon. Okay, let's go. All right. Thank you very much for listening to the Tenkara Cast. I'd like to extend a special thank you to Nick Ogawa, also known as Takenobu. Check out his music at takenobumusic.com. We'll be posting links to any references we made in this podcast, such as Takenobu's music, on our website, www.tenkarausa.com forward slash podcast. And until next time on the Tenkara Cast. You