The Flyathlon, with Steve Conrad

0:00This is Daniel Galhardo and you're listening to the Tenkara Cast, a podcast about the simple Japanese method of fly-fishing, Tenkara. In the Tenkara Cast we'll be sharing information on techniques, history, philosophy, and Tenkara stories from anglers all over the world. This podcast is brought to you by Tenkara USA, introducing Tenkara outside of Japan since 2009. It's only possible we create content such as this podcast and videos because of your support. So we thank you so very much for purchasing Tenkara USA rods, lines, and flies. I hope you enjoy learning more about the simple method of fly fishing. Today we have here with us Steve Conrad. Steve is very well known here in Boulder, Colorado as the Tenkara Guide for Rocky Mountain Anglers, one of the Tenkara USA dealers, and he also works as a representative at McGuckin's Hardware Store, another Tenkara USA dealer here in the area. And he's known as their Tenkara expert in there.

1:02Steve just came back from a really interesting experience over the weekend at the Flyathlon. And we'll learn a little bit more about what the Flyathlon is here with Steve. How are you, Steve? Thanks for coming in today. Great. I think it's great to be here, Daniel. Thanks for having me. So tell me, there's this concept that I think it's a new idea that you just went to this thing called the Flyathlon. This is the second annual. There was a trial run the year before that, so it'd be the third. It's called the Rocky Mountain Flyathlon, and there's a website, of course, and everything. But the concept is pretty simple. It's a triathlon of sorts. It's run fish beer. So the name of the game is it's a 12-mile trail run or a 7-mile trail run. I did the 12. And then you have to catch a fish, take a picture of it on your race bib to prove how big it is. You get points, you get time off of your running time for how big the fish is.

2:02And then, of course, species. And at the back, the top of the run, furthest out, there's a small section of very, very skinny creek that's full of the Rio Grande cutthroat, which is a species I'd never caught before as well. And I really wanted to try there. and on the Rio Grande Cutthroat, you get twice the bonus points off of your time. So that was a real big incentive to try to get back there. But it's actually beyond the race course. You have to go further to get there. And then once you've done that, the beer element, I thought was going to be more on the spot. It was actually at the finish line, but I carried a beer with me. I had an upslope pale ale with me. and I'm sorry, upslope lager, craft lager, the one that donates to Trout Unlimited. And I carried it the whole way and I drank it over the finish line. So that was my little like end of the whole thing. I guess you probably wouldn't be able to attract that many fishermen to just run and fish.

3:03You have to add beer to the thing, right? Yeah, they actually had whiskey at the turnaround as well. Before, like in the middle of running? Yeah, there was whiskey available at the turnaround. I was in late. I was moving slow. So you've run six miles, and then you drink a little whiskey, and you run the other six miles back? Thereabouts. The race course was a little bit. There was a loop for the long people, and then the short people had an out and back. And so I did a loop, came back to the start-finish line, and then did the out and back that the seven-milers did. So the 7-milers had already fished the water by the time all the 12-milers had gotten to it. So they actually complicated the strategy a little bit more. What an interesting concept. I mean, trying to mix running with fishing. I mean, it seems to be, of course, I'm sure there's an overlap between the people that like running, that also love fishing, that get attracted to this. How many people are participating? I think it's basically four service regulations.

4:06there were 60 spots available for both races, the long race and the short race. It seemed to be a little bit more balanced towards the short race. There are more people willing to do that than to try to do the longer race. But a definite mix in both categories as to fishing biased and running biased people. there was a huge negative handicap handed to anyone who didn't catch a fish. There were four people who didn't manage to catch a fish. So you score more points based on fish than based on your running time. Is that the idea? I wish it were a little more based that way. I think you still have to be a runner really to think about winning the race. I wish they would bias it perhaps a little bit more towards if you were just a good fisherman, you could potentially win the race by either. You know, right now there's only one fish required.

5:07I actually caught two and hooked one of the Rio Grande cutthroat but didn't land it, which I really wanted to land. But I think there's the possibility for the Grand Slam there. There are brown, rainbow, brookie and the Rio Grande cutthroat. that was actually my real goal was to grand slam it once I knew that the younger lads were going to run me into the ground I thought well I'll just grand slam this thing would you get more points if you grand slammed there was no point advantage whatsoever that's what I'm saying if there were I think it would be like a little bit more of a fun you know fun race uh bouncing the the fly fishing off of the running off of the beer drinking I guess the only problem is that people It would probably take 12 hours to finish a 12-mile round course. Well, the course did have a drop-dead time, as it were. And, yeah, so you had to be off. And I think that you would do the same thing. Andrew, the gentleman who organizes the race, the race director, he approached me about the possibility of a marathon-based one that would be a 12-hour race and be a Grand Slam.

6:14You had to catch four species and run 26.2 miles. And for in 12 hours. And that is intriguing to me. Wow. I'm glad it's intriguing to you. It's not quite my thing. I'm not not a runner. I think my knees just can't take it. But you are also like an ultra marathon runner for a while. Yeah, I started some. I actually always failed to finish. But you're running like, what, 50, 60 miles? How long? Well, I entered the Leadville 107 times. I started it, never finished it. My furthest was 76 miles in 21 hours. And I became sick and couldn't keep it together. And I'm a quitter. That's incredible. I mean, 70 plus miles. I don't like driving that much, to be honest. I kind of felt like this race, I was kind of cheating because not only am I an ultra runner or have been, I guide Tenkara. Tenkara is the perfect weapon for this race. There were two other Tenkara fishermen besides myself of the 60. I was, of course, trying to improve those numbers for next year, showing them the benefit.

7:20And then, of course, I'm a home brewer, so I took a keg of my own beer along, and it was the first one finished. Man, this is like the perfect race for you. It was. This is your thing. Really, I enjoyed myself wholeheartedly. That's great. So, okay, let's say, so there was, would you say there was about 60 people participating, like overall, in both the short and long race? There were 60 people running, and of course there was support crews. So there was probably 70, 80, 90 people. So the support crew for the other people, were they carrying their rods, reels, and fishing vests and that kind of thing? No, when I'm talking support, I'm talking race organizers, race crew, photographers, people making sure you didn't cheat in ways. Some of the rules were pretty astounding. I guess they've had people attempt to cheat by carrying dead fish. Oh, are you kidding? Running with fish in their reservoirs, their hydration reservoirs. You're joking. People are going through that kind of level. It was in the rules, and I can only imagine if it was in the rules, it happened.

8:22It happened once, and then they put in the rules. You're not allowed to carry a dead fish in your platypus back. That's hilarious. Well, it's nice that people are combining the sports. I think we have the idea of Tenkara Plus. I think this is probably one of the first real legitimate Tenkara Plus running I've seen. It truly was Tenkara Plus. And you and I, Daniel, have done a couple of other Tenkara Pluses on the side, probably first times as well. And it was really a great event. I would encourage everyone to attempt to get in it. The spots are very limited. There are people talking about organizing. Andrew's talking about organizing a few more races around Colorado here. And then also I heard there was one in Wisconsin that someone was at the race looking to see what the race was about with the notion of organizing a similar event in Wisconsin. So I guess somebody can look up Rocky Mountain Flyathlon and they'll find the information about how to participate.

9:24Right. Is there like a short website that you remember that people can find more information about it or just looking at it? I would Google that. I think it might be RockyMountainFlyathlon.com, but I just kind of Googled it myself the first time. And I should probably mention, too, that the flyathlon has a conservation aspect to it. You're actually raising funds for, like, Trout Unlimited. Correct. So you're entering fee and you're asking for support from people. So that money does go to conservation as well. Right. Oh, cool. And were you pre-beat after the race or 12 miles is nothing for you? Because you took a pause here and there to fish as well. It was a long race. It was hot. I probably am not trained as I was when I was ultramarathoning as much, but it was really a blast. And having the opportunity to stop and fish, of course, is really rejuvenating. And I, of course, found myself becoming absorbed in that more than I should have. And so it took a little longer, but I still finished in time. And gear is kind of important, too. I mean, I've got to imagine that's got to be a different approach to your typical car fishing trip.

10:28I just came back, actually, from fishing Boulder Canyon. And I loaded up my car, just put a backpack full of stuff in there for, you know, just in case. And I was taking a friend out, so we had some waders and wading boots. Obviously, it's different when you're mixing running with Tenkara. Tell me about your gear. Let's talk about the running gear first. I mean, just regular running shoes or what? Oh, well, of course, trail running shoes. I wish I would have had some more of the compression socks on because my ankles just got tore up with all the moisture we've had. here this year the trails was overgrown it's a it was a very rural part of colorado absolutely no cell signal anywhere around there um and uh so you're running shoes of course i had a lightweight pack to carry water there was really no place to get water other than uh if you were to filter or treat the water out of the creek along the course they just didn't have that in the infrastructure and uh and of course tin car wise talking to all the other competitors the night before there was a pre-party um where if you participated you got bonus points um trying to understand what the terrain was what the fishery was like and uh all that i ended up actually taking two tin car rods i was probably the only person carrying two rods and i and i actually uh it actually benefited me having both in this particular race because the lower on the lower two parts of the run there were beaver ponds where the reach from the sato was really excellent.

12:06But when I got up into the above the waterfall which was the natural barrier to prevent all the other trout from moving upstream when I got up there above that barrier the the creek became very small, very overgrown, kind of no trails along the side, lots of brush. And I end up literally wading up the creek in my running shoes, trying to get to the terrain where the fish would be. And using the roto all the way down, was only really able to bow and arrow cast up the stream, did hook a fish, wish I would have landed it. It happens. The one that you want is the one that gets away right very small as well so the bonus probably wouldn't have been worth it for the other two fish i'd caught they were they were much larger so um but it was fun to to go out there and try to fish that kind of tight water so you carry two rods which i guess you know like most people are carrying a rod and reel and your weight was exactly the same you know probably a little less because most reels are about three ounces most western rods are about three ounces as well And the Rhodo and Sato, you're looking at five and five and a half ounces, a little over, just under five and a half ounces, actually.

13:18Right. Yeah. Cool. So you had your two rods and what did you carry like in terms of your fishing kit? I carried a couple of line holders preloaded. I didn't really want to take the time to, of course, worry about changing flies and all that if something wasn't going to work. And, you know, of course, there was a little intel the night before as to what was working. And it is very rural, very wild, very untouched country up there. So basically almost any bug that hits the water is going to, if it's presented well, is going to cause the fish to strike. So it was really no big deal. So you're a dry fly guy. I am. I know you use the tenkara flies occasionally and that kind of thing. But what flies did you have success with? Well, you know, just you and I have talked about this before. I'm kind of a, I've always been a minimalist. So I don't really think it's about the fly. I think it's about the presentation. Tenkara is the perfect tool for that.

14:19I'm a believer. I'm from Missouri, the show me state. I had to prove it to myself, but I'm all over it now. And I don't think it matters what fly. The fly I used is kind of a, actually a complete joke on all that. It's called Stevie's Wonderfly. and it's a caddis stimulator kind of a fly. Any fish would just love to strike at it once I present it the way I can. So that's kind of, it was a joke really, a joke fly for me and it doesn't really matter what fly you use. It's all about presentation. Totally agree, I think, any fly. So Steve's Wonderfly, I'm assuming that's named after yourself? No, it's not my fly at all. It's another designer, you can Google it. Stevie's Wonderfly is the actual name of the fly. And like I said, it's a caddis profile with a little bit of, you know, flash in there. So it kind of has a stimulator look too. I'll look up that image and I'll put it on our website, tenkarausa.com forward slash podcast.

15:20For anybody who's listening to you that wants to see what the Stevie's Wonderfly that Steve used to catch fish on the flyathlon, you can look it up. Yeah, the gentleman who created it is named Steve something. And, of course, I'm Steve. That's the fun. And Stevie Wonder is the – and he, of course, I think did the Ray Charles as well. So kind of playing on that. And on this trip, you also, like, even though, you know, you're running, I mean, I guess weight is not – you don't want to carry too much extra weight. But it's not a huge concern because it's for somebody who is running long races. Is it? Well, you know, you're saying that. And it's true. And for me, I did – I carried more than I should have. And I'm an old Eagle Scout and I have to be prepared. I took some blister stuff because I knew I would get my feet wet. I took a small Sawyer's mini water filter, and I took more water than most of the guys. There were some people who actually were kind of borderline dehydrated, but I wanted to be able to be hydrated the whole time so I could drink beer when I got to the finish line. Well, you never know.

16:21If the fishing is good, you might have to stay there for a few hours and let go of the race, right? Exactly. I would have totally done that. It would have been explosively hot. Yeah, I think if I had to do this race, I would probably run like half a mile. I would find a good couple of fishing holes, and I would be doing the one last cast for a few hours. Yeah, just one more cast. One more cast, one more cast, yeah, and then I would show up a few hours later. Although, have you got a real grand cutthroat? Because I still don't. Let's go. Yes, we totally should do that. And actually, the grand slam with a cutthroat sounds really fun, too. But, you know, going back about gear, you took a fishing net with you as well, right? I did take a net with me as well. And I ended up not using it because the creek was so small. You know, and of course, with my excitement, I just basically literally yanked the fish out of the water. And they weren't huge fish. It was because the stream was so small. There was a legend that the daughter of the race director, who was like 12, caught a 12-inch brown earlier on Friday out of the creek on an elk hericatus.

17:26which would have been another fly I would have considered, but mine's almost the same. And so there were some bigger fish in there. But I just took the net because I didn't really want to miss the fish like I did on the Rio Grande up above. I couldn't have netted that fish. I wasn't close enough to net it before it was off. But, of course, at the time I was thinking, oh, I should have had that with me. Well, it makes sense. I mean, even though you're carrying an extra couple of ounces of gear, I mean, you took one of the 10-caronats, which is about three ounces. But if you have a fish and you're just about to bring it into hand and it counts to take a picture with it, it definitely kind of improves your chance to bring the fish to hand. And there is a picture of the fish I caught with the beer laying on it. It's full at the time. I carried it the whole way full. Maybe I'll encourage Daniel to link it off the website. Yeah, we'll post that picture as well. Yeah, I think that was the picture in front of your bib, right, which had a little ruler on the bottom so that people knew that you actually cut a fish that day.

18:27And my name's kind of hidden, but the name, and I guess all these things have been cheated before. People have cut fish for other people. That's funny. Were people tagging along as a team once in a while, like some of the people, or is it very individual? I think because I was on the long course and most of the young bucks took off ahead of me. It started off the steep uphill and some switchbacks, and I went out too fast and ended up finished the top of the hill walking. I could see them in the distance as they crested the hill, but I didn't really see many people together at all. It was kind of nice in that every time I saw a fisherman, of course, I didn't stop and interrupt their fishing, and no one really fished anywhere near when I was fishing either. There was opportunities where I know people saw me fishing, so everyone was really good about their fishing, not throwing rocks in the water or doing that kind of evil stuff. Was that in the rule book, do not throw rocks in the water like somebody's fishing there? It was. I don't know. I guess there are. I'm already a fly athlete in good standing, so I'll get first dibs next year.

19:33But there were two people this year who were not on the fly athletes. They were in bad standing. I can't remember the exact terminology, but they were not going to be allowed to be participating again this year. Oh, do you know what they did? I don't know. I don't know. Yeah, I can totally see somebody just being like trying fishing a hole and then just throwing rocks in there so nobody will catch a fish afterwards. Right. I guess that would be one of the excuses you could use for why you didn't catch a fish, but it doesn't help your sport. I think the people who weren't catching fish were long course people who thought they would wait until they got to the short course. Of course, they'd already been fished, So you needed to not only be a fast runner, but you needed to be a good fisherman. Well, I guess having a strategy, too, because I think it's all about strategy. Yeah. I mean, fish earlier, fish late or in the middle, just kind of trying to decide. I fished both times. I just wanted to go fishing, too. The water was beautiful. Now tell me, like, so the other people, there was only two people or two other people with tenkara rods. What were the rigs like for other people? Because, I mean, running with, you know, some of the rods can be kind of challenging.

20:39It was pretty amazing that, you know, most people, of course, had four-piece rods. That was what most people had. They would allow any kind of rod. They would even allow spin casting. I didn't see any spin rods. Well, take that back. I did see one spin rod. It was a short five-foot one-piece spin rod with a fly reel attached to it, ultra-lightweight. And I could see where up above the falls there. that would have been probably a pretty effective way because he could have bow and arrow casted that in and actually move the rod around. I ran into a little trouble with the brush being so high. Even at the roto at 8.6, I had to look before I set the hook to where I could find a clear spot to move the rod around. But he could strip set, you know. Oh, yeah, that's a good point, too. Did you try choking up on the grip or making the rod even shorter by having one segment in, maybe? You know, at the time, of course, there is excitement. I mean, this is kind of a fun thing to try to fish fast, but effectively. So I didn't. After the fact, I thought, well, maybe I could have even taken sections out to where I would have just had the top pieces.

21:44Yeah, and I think I would have just probably, you know, if you hold the roto, for example, the roto is 8 feet 10 inches when it's shortest. If you hold it, like just hold it up above at the end of the segment, that's almost 2 feet shorter. So it would be like, let's say, 7 feet long. but if you're not going after a very large fish also having one segment inside the rod so you're almost like by choking the grip and putting a segment in it's almost four feet shorter so you would have had like a five foot rod and i should have done that of course next year yeah exactly this was my whole strategy thing and of course i was hoping that by next year i would know which rod to take and in the end it was kind of handy having both however i think because it doesn't weigh that much it really wouldn't be that you know big of a deal to take both either you know again the second year that's so cool yeah i'm glad you did that and so this is your first time trying to fly athlin and right and you're planning to try again next year yeah and i think you know i i think myself you know if you're in the boulder colorado netherland area actually live up netherland colorado above boulder um i'm thinking you know probably maybe this year and of course next year for sure early up training runs I'll probably organize maybe a few small training runs where anyone in the area who might want to tag along and run fish beer I'll be all up for having some people join me and have a little mini competition of our own maybe off the grid up in Indian Peaks or something and then I'm a home brewer craft beer on me sounds fun I'll be waiting at the finish line the finish line with the support crew and the beers and hopefully there'll be some beers left for you guys when you arrive yeah yeah yeah i don't know if i can do much of the running thing but i'd love to see it it's uh you know i think that's the other thing that is kind of interesting because you know i some people of course they'll find a pool and they'll stay planted on it uh and of course and and i then especially when i go fishing a mountain stream i'll move kind of after four or five casts in each pool, I'll kind of move. So I move relatively fast. And I guess you're on the extreme. You're just moving very fast. Yes. Yeah. You, I mean, in some of the water had been fished already. So then I have to be careful about, you know, where I'm fishing. I kind of assumed myself that many of the people there were not as experienced as fishermen as myself. So I would go for those spots where I knew that most people probably wouldn't look for fish they would just be casting out in the middle of beaver ponds and assuming the fish are laying in the middle of the beaver pond and that's not where I was fishing yeah I guess it's closer to the closer to the shore very often yeah and of course where the inlet and the outlet of those streams where the water's pouring in and pouring out the fish are holding in those little pockets we know that so like the trail itself was Is it like pretty much like following the stream, like right by the stream most of the time?

24:45Well, again, there was a loop and then there was out and back. So the loop followed, it went up over a ridge line and then followed a stream all the way up to the top of it and then crossed the ridge and came down a ridge line. And then from there dropped into the other drainage where the short course was and it was out and back up and down the creek. Okay. So within probably 30 yards of the creek, the entire run. So you pretty much have visibility to the creek almost the entire time. Other than, you know, the foliage, there's been more rain in Colorado this year. All the grasses and everything is taller and more lush. Southern Colorado is typically more arid, but this was more grown-up grass. So when you're running, essentially you're going by and you're zipping along really fast, But then would like some pools maybe catch your eye and you were like, stop? Or did you have a place in mind where you wanted to stop? Well, it was, I was totally blind to the course.

25:47I hadn't been on any of it prior to the run. So of course I'm just scouting it as I'm going and trying to think of the logic of everyone else. You know, this is all strategies, of course, but you know, where would the other people have fished already that were in front of me? And obviously there's a bunch of beaver ponds, and most people are fishing the beaver ponds. And from above the course where the trail was on the hillside, more of course, not down in the watershed itself, you could see down in the water in a lot of those beaver ponds this time of year. We're kind of skinny, and you could see the bottom. And I could see people fishing where there were no fish. So, I mean, I think you'd do better if you were to stay away from them, but that's a magnet for an immature fisherman. And I think one of the strategies I have, I was actually talking to this friend that I took fishing this morning in Boulder Creek. We did not run there by the way we drove. But, you know, he was kind of new to fly fishing in general, very new to Tenkara. And, of course, there's some pools that are really obvious.

26:48You know, when you teach somebody how to read water, it's like, hey, the current is bringing the food to the fish and the calm water allows the fish to stay put. Look for the calm water and there's going to be some bigger, you know, pools that it's like there's definitely that's a very fishy spot. That's a prime spot. But then when you're looking, especially mountain streams, there's all these little tiny seams that almost all the fly fishermen would never even look at it. But they're just big enough that if your fly hangs in there for a couple of seconds, which Tenkara allows you to do really well. Right. But the Western guys don't stand a chance at that. Yeah. So I think targeting those kinds of like really less obvious low pools would be. Which is exactly what I was doing. I mean, I was staying away from the obvious spots and fishing those little tight spots that are, you know, little seam lines that are invisible to most fishermen. Smart, yeah. Well, so we'll see. Hopefully, I'll be joining you in one of the flyathlons if you organize one with a beer. Well, it won't be an official flyathlon.

27:50It'll just be a training run, we'll call it. Yes, a training run, absolutely. So I'll put a link. I'll find a link to the flyathlon. If anybody's interested in taking up the Tenkara Plus running, joining one of the flyathlons in the next year, you'll find a link at tenkarausa.com forward slash podcast. Thank you very much for listening to the Tenkara Cast. I'd like to extend a special thank you to Nick Ogawa, also known as Takenobu. Check out his music at takenobumusic.com. We'll be posting links to any references we made in this podcast, such as Takenobu's music, on our website, www.tenkarausa.com forward slash podcast. And until next time on the Tenkara Cast.