Conversation with Jason Klass and more

0:00This is Daniel Galhardo and you're listening to the Tenkara Cast, the podcast about the simple Japanese method of fly-fishing, Tenkara. In the Tenkara Cast, I'll be sharing information with you on techniques, history, gear and philosophies, as well as Tenkara stories from anglers all over the world. This podcast is brought to you by Tenkara USA, introducing Tenkara outside of Japan since 2009. It is only possible we create content such as this podcast and all the videos that we create because of your support. So we thank you so very much for purchasing Tenkara USA rods, lines and flies. I hope you enjoy learning more about the simple Japanese method of fly fishing, Tenkara. Hey everyone, welcome back to another episode of the Tenkara Cast. My name is Daniel, I'm your host and today I have a very special guest here with us. Jason Klaas from Tenkara Talk. Jason and I have known each other for over a decade and we'll kind of discuss what got him into Tenkara, his experiences with it, his history, and a couple other cool topics that we were talking about earlier. We had a conversation earlier and last minute we were like, you know, we should really talk about this in a podcast.

1:17So here we are a couple hours later recording an episode for you. Hey, welcome to the show, Jason. oh thank you it's it's awesome to be here so tell me um you know like you've been an instrumental part of Tenkara and you're the most prolific blogger you know on the topic um pretty much anywhere actually there's not I don't think there's anybody even in Japan that blogs as consistently and has blogged as much as you have uh why don't you tell us your story of getting into Tenkara first of all? Well, I remember back in 2009, I had a website where I was trying to sell fly fishing gear that was compatible with ultralight backpacking. And I was just doing a random Google search and I came across your site, which you had just started like maybe, i don't know six months before and so at that time you know you were a pretty small shop um and i called you and you gave me the rundown on the phone about uh about tenkara and uh i'm like wow this this is perfect this is perfect for uh ultralight hiking and so we talked and then you offered to send me a rod and you sent me a in iwana i still have that iwana by the way nice um it was it was the the old one with the the green pans i i still have it and i i took it out fishing in rocky mountain national park and i caught a bunch a bunch of uh cutthroat trout and i'm just like wow that was perfect so i was hooked from then on yeah so you know now it's been over over 10 years it's been like almost 11 years but um i i just it was perfect for here because you know if you think about it a lot of the high elevation streams we have here in colorado they're identical almost uh to the uh high mountain streams in japan where tenkara was invented so um yeah so it just made sense and i've i've been using it ever since it's not it's not uh it's not like a uh philosophy or anything like that for me it just it's just practical yeah and you also have a very long history with fly fishing and the outdoors i mean that's one thing oftentimes you know people maybe just think that you just came out of the scene into the scene out of the blue which you know for Tenkara you might have done that but you have a long history with fly fishing what and also like with writing about outdoor activities why don't you tell us a little bit about your history before Tenkara and then we'll talk a little bit about the after Tenkara well um um you know it's it's uh uh i like to combine sports um so uh it's kind of like i i can combine tenkara and backpacking really easily it it takes you know it used to be oh god i've got a lug all this fly fishing equipment and all this heavy stuff and everything but you know with tenkara it's like it's a no-brainer i mean well i was mostly curious about your actual fly fishing experience because sometimes you know tenkara has this thing where there's like a lot of people that never you know fly fish before and they get into it but you actually have a you know you you were a very experienced fly angler when you discovered tenkara weren't you yeah so some people um some people push the envelope with tenkara and i'm not one of those people um i don't salt water fly fish for i mean i i do a lot of uh you know salt water fly fishing but um i don't i don't i don't i don't do uh tenkara for bone fish you know for barracuda or tarpon or anything like that i don't do that but you but before tenkara you had some experience with that i think that's kind of what i was trying to understand your pre-tenkara fly fishing experience that's because you worked for a fly shop and you you know you had i work for i work for a fly shop right now um and i don't but you know i for okay to me uh part of me wants to respect the truth it's not it's not even respecting the tradition it's just like using the right tool for the right job and i i don't know for me i like to feel i like to hear the scream of the reel when i hook a bonefish so i'm not i'm not going to use uh the tenkara rod for bonefish you can do it it's you know karen miller uh does it um but i don't know to me it takes it takes some of the joy out of it like i like to hear the reel scream you know uh i like to hear the drag you know go and get into the backing and all that stuff so in why don't we talk a little bit about that so you know over almost 11 years of tenkara and you know like early on we have the we had the forum you know on tenkara.com that was very active and there have been all kinds of stages that we have seen as we introduced tenkara to the u.s uh do you remember some uh particularly intriguing stages of you know tenkara being introduced to the states because i kind of i have a few in mind but i kind of wonder one of the things i remember is um everyone wanted to not not everyone but a lot of people they they one of the questions is can you add a reel to a tenkara rod yeah one of that yeah absolutely yeah so okay as a matter fact i remember a very funny post that you did where you know you're talking about being ten cut i think maybe outlaws the term that you used where you know some regulations in different parts of the states or a couple of different countries asked for using a reel and you're like well i'm just going to velcro this line holder i remember that well i think i think if i remember correctly that was like 2006 and it was in pennsylvania um but yeah exactly but i remember that stuff and um it's i don't know it's like i think everyone has to discover their own tenkara and whether that's uh you know you you know use a furled line a love line whether you use an elk hair caddis or traditional tenkara fly it doesn't really matter you know everyone has to discover their own tenkara and after almost 11 years um you know i think i don't know i i've discovered my own tenkara and if people don't like it yeah i don't care you know and and if people want to follow me I don't care.

8:35And if people want to debate me, I don't care. I've got my own Tenkara. And I think everyone needs to find their own Tenkara. Yeah. No, I completely agree with that. I mean, we kind of give them, you know, a starting point. I mean, this is a, I think you and I are very aligned in that sense of, yes, there is this method of fly fishing from Japan. They've refined the techniques, you know, over centuries. There's a lot to learn from them. but sure you kind of do kind of you do you uh but i think you and i what i liked about you over the years is that we have been giving people a good starting point you know and they take that information and they do what they want with it and i think that's kind of like our job we provide that starting point that inspiration and then people find their own tank out i like that way of putting it um yeah so you know like one thing that i was interested in asking you too is you know you've been very consistent it's very easy to start a blog and you know when you become really interested in something you're very enthusiastic about it but it is very hard to keep up with it I mean even my myself you know like I wrote a lot about think I like my blog was very very active in the beginning and after a while I was like I kind of felt like I didn't want to write a whole lot more and then I got sucked into writing the book and I think I got a a little bit burnt out and then moved on more to the to this podcast but what is it that drives you that has kept you going with the Tenkara Talk for as long as you have and how many years have you been doing the Tenkara Talk now oh now it's over 10 years wow yeah you started pretty early in your Tenkara I started right after I talked to you yeah literally that's right because you had a blackbacking thing but tenkara talk was pretty much at the same time since you had gear talk before which is outdoor uh or back I still have that I just haven't been posting there but yeah um you know well I also had some you know personal issues that came up that uh kind of prevented me from writing but um uh but no I'm you know I'm still I'm gonna keep it up I mean And I've seen so many websites come and go over the years.

10:57And Tom Davis and other websites. But it's okay. So what is it? A lot of people, they have this ambition of writing a blog or being creative. And then they give up because they realize it actually takes work. Yeah. You've got to be focused. You've got to be, you know, you've got to, like, have ideas. You've got to be focused. You've got to do the work. And a lot of people just, they're not willing to do it. You know, they love the idea, theoretically, but they just don't do the work. you know and so um and now i think boy i've got what 600 oh let's see you know 500 and something but well whatever uh over 500 posts so what is it that drives you to keep posting you know to be consistent when you're able to because you're you know that's not like your full-time job or anything so it's uh it's you know there's something there that's driving you and i'm kind of curious about that passion yeah that's it if you're passionate about something you you'll you'll do it no matter what you know and i don't know for years i've given i've given away free information um with no expectation no expectation of anything in return you know and um i'll i'll keep doing that for the rest of my life you know i think we should get into the oh go ahead sorry no go ahead no i was just gonna say like i wonder if we should get into the meat of the conversation you know which we started this morning um that you were bringing up what's up the master stuff yeah you know because i thought that was a very interesting conversation that we were having and yes it was okay well I'm I'm game if you are yeah no absolutely so you know like this morning yeah like we're talking about something unrelated and then you brought up this post that you were thinking about writing you know specifically about the term Tenkara Masters and there was some really kind of interesting points that we discussed but why don't you kind of tell us what it is that you were maybe planning to write or what is it that, because it's not, you know, what I liked about the conversation we had this morning, it was not that, you know, you were, you had this answer, really particularly strong opinion.

13:41It was more like, here's an opinion and I'm questioning the use of this term. And we kind of had a nice back and forth from a cultural use of the term Tenkara Masters and that kind of thing. So do you want to elaborate on that? Yeah. No, and actually, you educated me on some points that I didn't think about. So I really do appreciate that. It's a nice back and forth. I liked it. Yes. So my point, my contention was I don't like the use of the term master um for to refer to japanese ten car anglers that was my contention and daniel educated me about how in other languages um like uh brazilian portuguese and uh japanese and stuff like that um it's kind of a different usage so i didn't realize that and you know it's funny uh because my background is in linguistics um well philosophy and linguistics but um so i i didn't get that uh so he schooled me today well i wouldn't say i schooled you because i i did agree with the points you're bringing up because after all too we are speaking in english we are primarily driving you know content in english language and you know my point was and i think you had a very valid point where you brought up was like you know i really don't like to use the as much the use of the term tenkara masters when we're referring not only to not so much the japanese tenkara anglers as actually to the to the masters and i'm going to use this uh kind of carefully a little bit but um so it's not like we're you know like people are referring to all japanese distinct japanese english existing kind of masters as much as a few specific people and it is a term that i myself kind of stopped using as much you know even in my book i was kind of pointing out that like i just call them my teachers and i use the word masters i think once in quotation in that uh in that chapter because yes like i think in the english language uh we're not so used to using the term master and sometimes that comes with a negative connotation or just with some baggage and yeah but but i think um in our conversation this morning we talked about um we talked about exactly that so it was like um you know you said um uh yeah he's not my master he's my teacher yeah and he's a tenkara master because that was a point that somebody brought up many years ago they kind of brought up the same thing to me it's like why do you use tenkara masters you know it's like they're and the interesting thing was like you know by definition a master is somebody who acquires a high level of skill but is also willing to teach it you know it's not just somebody who's highly skilled in something but also somebody who's willing to share it and by that definition you are also a tenkara master because you've been sharing this stuff with people and and of course like we usually feel uncomfortable you know like i feel highly uncomfortable when people try to call me a tenkara master uh just because it's it's a weird word in the japanese language or in the english language but i've had people from like italy or from brazil calling me a mastery and it doesn't feel quite as wrong you know it just feels a little softer for some reason uh but by definition you jason klyas is a tenkara master because you have a high level of skill and you're sharing it and you're laughing at it because the same way i do right because it is a long comfortable uh but then i was talking about like in japanese yes if you ask one of the japanese teachers dr Ishigaki masami sakakibara are you a master there's always going to be this humble part of them they're like no no no i'm not a master but at the same time and they are highly skilled they're teaching a lot of people within japan and outside of japan and not only that but in japanese like most people refer to for example sakakibata masami or yuzu Sebata they will refer to them as shisho you know which is it's like a teacher it's a mentor it's almost like a master it's hard to translate a lot of times the words exactly but the connotation is the same you know somebody who has skill is willing to teach but but and uh we we have this exact conversation this morning on the phone um and uh you know my my point was you would never call gary borger uh uh a master oh my master you would never refer to him like that never you would never call gary la fontaine that you would never call jimmy houston that you would never call uh you know billy houston that you never you would never refer to him as math although i do have to wonder like if we were to google or you know like i i wouldn't be surprised if we find a reference to gary borger for example as a master of fly fishing you know i think the maybe the way the the term is used and we get into semantics of it's it's like like we we just have this conversation daniel you It was like master of versus master.

19:17Like master Gary. Master of bass fishing. Those are two different. The connotation is different. Absolutely. I'm not sure. I don't like it. Yeah, no, and I agree with you. Hey, it's semantics. It's semantics. Well, and I think that's why we're doing the podcast episode because you're not the only person to bring that up. Right. So some people, multiple people, as a matter of fact, over the years have had a problem with the master's term. And I think my point, like the reason I was interested in making this podcast is because there's this back and forth about it. Or, you know, is it wrong to call a person master because we are referring to somebody who's from Japan and there's this kind of orientalism? There's this romanticism, you know, that we imply. well where is it okay that's exactly our conversation that we have this morning yeah and that's why we're recording this to share with other people you know it's it's hard to kind of have the conversation i think both of us are going to get some uh i think i think we're both going to get some pretty strongly worded emails i don't care i don't give a damn that's a i think it's a good conversation you know and i think i think the whole point is also questioning or it's not having an answer you know that's what i like about trying to do this podcast is that i kind of see it as more of like an intellectual exercise as opposed to trying to provide the answers because i kind of recognize i don't have the answers to everything and english is my second language so who am i to say what the word master is really refers to i'm not the right person for that but i guess my question to you like you know based on this conversation um should we continue referring to some of our teachers, some of these people that we've learned Tenkara from, should we continue once in a while referring to them as masters?

21:16Master of Tenkara, or a Tenkara master. Not necessarily my master, but a Tenkara master or a master of Tenkara? No, I don't think so. What do you think we should refer to them as? Just ask them. yeah and that's where i think that's where it kind of you get caught in this conundrum it's like we asked them and they're like no just think at a fisherman they're just regular guys you know i mean um with a lot of experience though yeah they have a lot of but look i mean um um i catch as many fish as dr ishigaki does uh so i don't i don't consider myself a master you know i've been doing this for 10 years i don't consider myself a master um yeah what what makes me a master do i have to levitate over the stream and like catch the fish well no i think that's kind of where you know if we look at a dictionary and we're trying to interpret the usage of a word you know based on modern kind of uh dialect if you will but if you look at a dictionary reference by all definition those folks are masters you are master you know maybe i am but at the same time there's the cultural element to it where we don't feel comfortable using that term unless maybe it's martial arts for some reason um well yeah that that is it yeah and i was bringing up that's exactly my point that's exactly my point um tenkara is not a martial art it's not a religion it's not a cult it's um i thought it was a coat well it used to be not anymore maybe but um um but um no it's not it's just fishing man yeah it's flinging a line out in the water with a fly on the end of it and catching a fish that's all yeah and i don't disagree with you by the way and like i want to make that very clear i know you know that i think the the reason we decided to record this is because there's a nice back and forth and i'm actually in agreement as i mentioned like in my book i don't use the term masters because it's written in english i prefer the word teacher because we all learn anything kind of from somebody and i think that's kind of the bottom line yeah it's really hard to well almost impossible but really hard to learn tank out in a vacuum or to learn anything in a vacuum whether you're learning from somebody directly in person or via a video or via podcast or via writing you do have somebody that you're learning from uh i agree with you it's it's always easier to learn if uh someone shows you hands-on it's always easier well not only easier but i think that's the only way because even with tenkara somebody can somebody can definitely be on their own in the water but the basic information they're gonna have to get that somewhere right yeah no it's you know um you know hands-on is always the best way to learn uh i i remember um well i was learning to code and um you know i i took an online course and yeah just really couldn't do it but then someone showed me how to do it i'm like oh okay that makes that makes sense right um so it's you know i know it's just always better well it's the same with like casting or cooking or anything mm-hmm yeah absolutely and but what is it you know like in terms of think cutter you know after doing it for almost 11 years you know what are what are your current interest because I kind of feel like we've always you know we all go through a little bit of different phases in our interest within an activity you know like flag tying or we become a little bit more interested in the writing part or events i mean is there a certain thing that you might be focused on at the moment uh probably tying um um yeah i i love tying because it's infinite and it it never ends you can there's always something else you can do in tying um you you can get your casting down perfect right you can cast with any rod any line anything you know you you can perfect that but the one thing you can never ever finish is tying because there's there's always one thing one more thing you can do if you don't like that pattern put a bead in front uh if you don't like you know this pattern uh change your your thread color it's time is it's infinite you'll never ever ever finish time you'll you'll finish your casting eventually you know you're gonna get it down to perfection you can do that but you're never gonna finish time with with that being said um just one maybe last question that i have for you like what is the main advice that you would give somebody who wants to fly fish you know like right now we're looking at a very large number of people who are interested in some activity that allows them to socially distance that also gives them you know puts them in a place that is low risk of catching whatever is going around the COVID stuff specifically. So a lot of people are trying to get into fly fishing and luckily I think you know like that kind of shows them an easy way to do it but what advice would you give to the people who are starting today because you and I've been doing it for a long time and sometimes I think we easily forget you know that there's a beginner there's always a new person who doesn't know the stuff that we talked about 10 years ago and I think it's important to kind of revisit those things once in a while. So what would you say to somebody who wants to getting to fly fishing right now yeah it's it's it's hard to go back to the beginning um i would say get get a simple rod get like in iwana or a sato and um and if you just a few flies and go to a bluegill pond and catch a few fish on the bluegill pond all you have to do is cast it out there twitch it i'll give you uh um bluegills and then um you're you're gonna get uh you're gonna get rewarded um then after that uh go back home and order uh the fly tying kit and then tie your own flies and then go back to the bluegill pond and um catch a fish on the fly you tied yourself doesn't matter for it it doesn't matter if it looks perfect uh just uh trust in your own instinct you know tie it um throw it out there twitch it and see if you get a fish and the first time you catch a fish on a fly you tied yourself you're gonna be so uh amazed so satisfied you tried really hard to avoid using the word hooked in there it's a cliche it's a cliche it's too cliche and i could see you avoiding to use that word but you're gonna get hooked right yeah well jason it was very nice to kind of revisit this you know uh over a decade of you know uh shared experiences um but actually that kind of reminds me of something that you touched upon the other day on a post that you did and I enjoyed reading that and I think we shouldn't finish this episode without writing about it you know you're what I gather from this post is that your main takeaway from Tenkara over the last decade has not really been about fishing it was about something else do you want to talk about that you know what I'm referring to I'm assuming I do not ah I thought it was a very nice posting you know that you said like one of the what was the thing that you're grateful for you know like in terms of the relationships oh yes um yes so yeah uh uh um i i've met some of the uh most amazing people in the world um you know i've i've uh yeah i've traveled um all over the world to meet Tenkara anglers. I've traveled.

30:35Well, you know, I've met you several times. We fished together. I met Dr. Ishigaki. I've met Tenkara no Oni. I've met so many people that I never would have met if it weren't for Tenkara. And no, I'm just grateful for that. I think I kind of want to leave it there because I realize I say, so when I sign books for people, I write fish simply. And most of the time I also write and create good memories, you know, because I think that in the bottom, the bottom line of it, you know, is that Tenkara is giving us this opportunity to have some experiences, you know, whether it's creating memories with people in nature. But there's also this beautiful relationships that sometimes we feel like if we're only looking online, And we kind of miss that aspect of it. And we don't quite realize how important those are. But one of the things I'm the most proud of, of creating Tenkara USA and sharing Tenkara has been exactly that, like the number of friendships in the community that has been created around it.

31:44So I appreciated hearing your or reading your post the other day about that, because that's one thing that I. Well, I mean, think about it, Daniel. I mean, you brought like hundreds of people together at every summit and they were all grateful to meet each other. You know, these are people who they only knew each other online. And then now all of a sudden they get to meet each other in person. That's pretty cool. Yeah, it is cool. All right. So let's wrap up and we'll have to have another conversation at some point. hopefully not in 10 years, but sooner. We'll find some other topics to cover together, I would imagine. But I'm glad to see you starting to post a little bit more on Tenkara Talk. And I'm trying to post a little bit more on Tenkara USA. And hopefully we'll give all the listeners to this episode good content. And I'll make sure to put a link to your blog, tenkarausa.com, on this podcast page as well.

32:50and then we're going to have a transcript and that kind of thing. But if you go to tenkarausa.com for a slash podcast, you can find the Tenkara Talk episode and find information about Jason in there as well. So thanks so much, Jason, for your time. It was a pleasure talking to you. And I do think we have to go fishing pretty soon here. I haven't been fishing too much. I'm being a little caught up with work, but looking forward to that this summer. Okay. Leg wise down. All right. Thanks. So that was a really good episode. I really enjoyed speaking with Jason. But we are recording this episode in the middle of some really difficult times in this country. A country that I have adopted as my own. As most of you probably know, I'm an immigrant. Originally from Brazil, came here for high school, decided to stay. It is my country. I love America. I'm an American citizen. and it's tough. It's tough to know exactly what to say. I'm a white guy and it is actually easier for me being a white person who is an immigrant living in this country than I think it is for a lot of African Americans who, as we all know, have had a very, very hard time for decades and continue to see police brutality and really are part of a system that has systemic racism that continues putting them at a disadvantage in a lot of different ways.

34:32It's heartbreaking. I've been pretty much on the verge of tears just watching what is happening. yes there is you know violence out there in the protests there is things that are going on looting although for what we can see it's not usually or not often part of the protesters definitely not the protesters who are really trying to still change but they are angry as i feel angry you know, for watching what is happening. So I want to just take a couple of minutes just to kind of let you know if you are a person of color, we support you. We are behind you. We listen to you. We're hearing you. And we do want to be part of the change as well. and Tenkara USA is going to be behind the movement towards anti-racism.

35:36That's one of the things that I've been taking away. I've been trying to read a lot on the topic, educate myself. As I mentioned, I'm a white guy. I can see what people are going through, but it's hard for me to really understand the struggles of living on a daily basis with some fear that something could happen on your way home, that you could be stopped for a trivial reason that could really easily escalate. So, you know, I do want to start moving towards more of this anti-racism, see what it is that we can do to improve things in this country, to let people know that it is not right, you know, to witness our neighbors facing police brutality and other issues just because they are a person of color. And yes, you know, the heartbreaking thing has been that this has been a little bit of a divisive issue.

36:39It has been heartbreaking to see some of the comments online, especially within fly fishing community, where, you know, I kind of felt like there's no room for debate here. It's just, yes, black lives matter because today they are facing an incredible amount of struggle. And they're not saying that other lives don't matter. Black lives matter, too. And I think that's kind of the gist of what we want to get here. And there's no ifs and buts. You know, like right now, we need to instill change to prevent black lives from being lost. And that's all there is to it. We can address other issues. We can talk about other, you know, problems down the road. But right now, we need to figure that piece out so that we can move on to the next piece and the next piece. so you know this is not a political podcast i um been trying my hardest to stay away from discussing politics uh but at the same time we do live in a political community we live in a political society where politics are part of our daily lives and i cannot continue to ignore that and pretend like all is well and pretend like all we can do is just provide some refuge from what's happening around the world because we live in the world right now.

38:08You know, if you're concerned about clean air, clean water, environmental issues, none of those matter if there's no, if people cannot live and they cannot enjoy those. You know, the whole point here is we're trying to make the world a better place, possibly through fishing, so that people can continue to enjoy those, the fruits of our labor in terms of making the world a better place. So I would be completely, you know, just, you'll be weird for me to not bring this up on the podcast because it is oftentimes a rambling podcast. This time we had a guest here, but I do bring issues that are at the forefront of my mind as I run Tenkara Yosei. and I don't you know like we sell rods we sell flies we sell lines but that doesn't matter if people cannot enjoy them and so that's kind of my soapbox right now but mostly I'm bringing this up because we cannot stay silent so there are things that you can do I'm probably not a best equipped person to tell you all you can do I'm not a person of color However, there's a lot of resources out there that you can be reading on things that you can do And it can be speaking up That's probably the most difficult thing that we can do right now But it is probably the most necessary thing to speak up when you witness some kind of racism Even though what I'm seeing is a lot of people thinking that they're not racist There's no racism in what they're saying When in reality there is and we need to point those out.

39:50If you're a person of color, I hope that we've been doing right for you, you know, by you, I guess. And if we can speak up more, we will. Let us know. I'm not trying to bring up a debate here. I'm just trying to let you know that we are aware of it. We're listening. We're trying to do better and we want to learn how to do better as well. So that's my soapbox for today. but I really am looking forward to a moment in time when we don't lose so many lives, whether it is through any of the invisible threats that we have right now, one of them being racism, the other one being COVID. I hope you get out and enjoy fishing. if you have an opportunity to do something for the planet do it do something for your community do it I think you'll find gratifying but mostly we're all in this together just like we're in COVID we cannot continue thriving living, enjoying the fruits of our society if we have this and any other invisible threats going on in our society thanks so much for listening I really hope you take my message for what it is it is not an argument it's not an invitation to have a discussion about that I'm not the person to do that with it is an invitation for us to all do better so thanks so much again for listening and hopefully you'll continue listening to my podcast and following Tenkara Osei on social media and other channels without feeling like we're trying to divide.

41:45We're just trying to be a part of unifying a community that we're a part of, the fly fishing community. Thanks again. Until next time on the Tenkara Cast.