On simplicity

0:00This is Daniel Galhardo and you're listening to the Tenkara Cast, a podcast about the simple Japanese method of fly-fishing, Tenkara. In the Tenkara Cast we'll be sharing information on techniques, history, philosophy, and Tenkara stories from anglers all over the world. This podcast is brought to you by Tenkara USA, introducing Tenkara outside of Japan since 2009. It's only possible we create content such as this podcast and videos because of your support. So we thank you so very much for purchasing Tenkara USA rods, lines, and flies. I hope you enjoy learning more about the simple method of fly fishing. Hey everyone, thanks for coming back and listening to another episode of the Tenkara Cast. And right now I'm sitting in a hotel room with Jeremy Shellhorn. A lot of you might know him as the artist behind the Tenkara book and a lot of the design work at Tenkara USA. and today we also have in the hotel room here Adam Trahan.

1:01You know him from the website Tenkara-Fisher and Adam is also being helping us with some of the content at Tenkara USA. He's got a good blog and here we are. And you might also hear little kids in the background once in a while because we are not too far from a swimming pool here in the hotel. So that's what that noise is going to be. and today if you hear ice and glasses clinking that's because we're drinking gin and tonic yeah we are it's nice and warm we are actually in Mountain Home, Arkansas it's nice and warm we're here for the sow bug what is it, sow bug? Roundup which is an event I've been hearing about for years and I've been wanting to come and check it out and we had a really good day and now we're just relaxing and we're going to talk about simplicity today. That's the topic. So yeah, thanks for tuning in again. So the idea today, it's like we're going to be drinking.

2:04It's a little bit like drunk history if you've ever watched a show, maybe. But we are, you know, we've been noticing a lot of people want to make tenkara way more complicated than it has to be. And we just kind of feel like it can be a little simpler. but you know we also want to ask ourselves like what does tenkara or what does simplicity mean is simplicity important and that kind of thing so that's what i wanted to get together with these guys to to discuss so what do you guys think uh maybe i can start with what is simplicity because that i think that has a lot of answers a lot of possible meanings to to people um you know if you want to start with what is simplicity simple does not mean stupid simple is often something that for me is easy to look at with the eye or operation to do that is the set of a bunch of complex thought or issues I'm my examples for simplicity would be things like a sailplane. To look at a sailplane, it's a very simple looking aeroplane and the wings are long and thin and it's a beautiful piece of composite material but what goes into it is very complex and the ideas to fly that sailplane high and for long distances is very very complex in the things that you need to know and do but the sailplane is quite simple in the way that it's laid out and another thing i guess would be like a surfboard you look at a surfboard and it looks kind of simple it's just like one thing and it has two or three fins but or one fin but the you look at it and the shape of the rail means something and it will do something but for me simplicity is does not mean stupid it just means it's aesthetically pleasing and it's really the culmination of a lot of things put together but it's easy to understand.

4:25What do you think, Jeremy? What is simplicity? Well, I mean, to kind of bounce off of what Adam was saying, you know, I don't know that simplicity necessarily is aesthetically pleasing. I think that's a result because, like, you've kind of, simplicity's hard. Like, especially in design, you know, any time you have less things, there's, you know, those particular things are very noticeable. and in Tenkara you know it's like the less things you have you know in in a lot of ways you can look at that as sort of a constraint but to me as a designer those constraints are really you know they kind of help creativity right because then you have to just use those things in order to think about new ways of fishing or you know new ways of looking at some situation you come to and you know so the aesthetic kind of beauty is kind of the result of those parameters right yeah and i think that's what's cool yeah that's what's cool about what you said there was that you know oftentimes that we think of those things as aesthetically pleasing because we get it we can see all the parts but like all that thought and all that um kind of experience that goes into having set up that simplicity, you know, it takes time.

5:50It's always a hard thing. Yeah, and so I think it's a great way to, you know, that's why that simple is stupid really stands out to people, because it's true. You know, when things are simple, that means that, you know, you've got to be really good at whatever those things are. Now, out of the, you know, like sometimes I think, okay, so to some people, simplicity can mean minimalism to other people simplicity can mean it just doesn't have a lot of moving parts and some other people think simplicity or simple is just stupid you know it has it's lacking of sophistication or why not um you know like in uh let's say in simple terms what is what do you think simplicity where do you think simplicity really fits in minimalism or not many moving parts? Maybe what's your favorite part about simplicity, I guess? Painting pictures. Gerak, you've fished with him, and you may know some of the things that I'm going to say.

6:54I think when either I interviewed him or I've read it somewhere, he says his best work is when he uses as few words as possible to develop that picture in your mind. So it doesn't mean it's efficiency. It's not so much the taking away as it is the parts that are meaningful, how they mesh together to make something bigger than the whole of the sum of those words together. Did I say that right? Sounded right. Hey, it works for me, but I'm halfway through a genotonic. so that's perfect. I heard the bell when I said it. Yeah, that was your timing. No, I think you put that really right, you know, that's why I like succinct writing is really hard. It's because you're kind of cutting to the chase, but I think, you know, I guess when I jump to simplicity, I think of kind of the less is more mentality, I guess.

7:58I don't ever really typically go to the simple is kind of like dumbed down. Um, but you know, that's probably just different people's perspectives looking on that. Like some people might think Tenkara fishing is dumbed down, right? Um, depending on where they're coming from. But to me, it's like, oh, that just puts more focus on certain things. Like the other day when I was fishing, I was like, well, if I, since I have this line and I have these flies in my box, I don't have all these other things. And so, you know, I will just do with what I can, with what I have here. And I do think in a nice way, it makes me just sort of like be in that kind of moment and notice things that I wouldn't otherwise be opening three or four different fly boxes like I used to do. And I just really like that. So you come to it from a fly fishing background? Mm-hmm. Okay. I do too. Simple as in tenkara is not, it doesn't, for me, it's sort of punk rock.

9:06Because I, when I was a fly fisher, I was making split bamboo rods, and I was studying Gary LaFontaine, and I had several patterns of different stages of an insect's life in my fly box and I carried all this extraneous gear and I would go fishing with this gear and I would make my choices and they were complex choices and they weren't always fun choices, it was frustrating. Comparatively to Tenkara, I only have a few flies in my box And typically I catch more fish with Tenkara than I do with that knowledge of fly fishing. So I guess comparatively speaking, for me, the simple choices may actually have kept my fly in the water more where I'm catching fish or that I was overthinking it in the first place.

10:08So let's talk, I like that you started touching on the idea of the equipment that you carry, because I want to get more into that later on, and I also want to talk about the other side of simplicity, or the opposite of simplicity, complexity, which I think some of you, or a lot of our listeners, and definitely all of us probably have had experience complicating our fly fishing in the past. But about the equipment, what do you think a simple tenkara angler carries in his kit give me an outline of what what do you need to carry to go fly fishing effectively and catch a lot of fish what you what do you think jeremy oh well effectively and catch a lot of fish i don't know i mean i don't think i was hired for my fishing it was probably my design ability but uh to in i mean to to go fishing you know i mostly just you know rod line and fly i mean i think that's why i've responded well give us a specific like breakdown like i mean because like when we're talking about line we probably mean line and tippet right yeah yeah so what do you think uh are you a very do you consider yourself like a real simple angler that carries just what you really need yes i definitely do and you know in and still a lot of times i will be like oh man i should have brought that other box and like that's just sort of a natural thing sometimes um but then i like you know the other day i went fishing on this is what thursday and i went fishing on monday uh with scott anglin who a lot of you guys know he makes beautiful nets and he's a great guy and a really great fisherman and so like you know i just brought a fly box and i brought a you know keeper it had a couple lines on there, mostly just so that, you know, if one gets sort of messed up because I'm not an incredible angler, you know, it's easy to just sort of replace another line while I'm on the river. And then I bring, you know, a rod. And in this case, I used our Sato just because...

12:11So it's just one rod? Yeah, just one rod. It's a very versatile rod. You know, I typically just use whatever rod, Kind of the biggest rod that I can use for the water that I'm fishing in. But that was a good rod for the size stream, which is kind of small to medium stream. And, you know, I'll bring forceps and nippers. I'll typically bring like a sketchbook just because I like to just, you know, part of fishing for me is being outside. And, you know, I'll just bring, you know, a series of, you know, flies. Is there, you know, anything, I don't do a one fly, although I think I could, and sometimes I kind of think about what I would zero in for my one fly, but to me it's almost like what materials could I figure out that I could tie the most flies with, because that's kind of what I like about Tenkara, it's so versatile, that you're really just sort of paring down your gear, so then you're figuring out sort of how to tweak it in a lot of different ways.

13:14But, you know, that's really all I bring. I just bring a small little kind of pack I can put on my belt, and, you know, that's all I've got. And there's certainly times where I've been like, oh, man, I'd really like to have a beadhead to get that fly down, and that was particularly the case on Monday. But it was like I was still catching fish, and maybe I wasn't catching the fish that I knew were way down deep, but I was trying to figure out ways to get the fly down there, and that to me is kind of just as much fun as catching the fish is trying to figure out how to get the fly down there. Have you felt that very often, though, that you're missing some heavy flies if you're carrying a few flies? Is that kind of a unique... Yeah, no, not all the time. Just in certain situations, that, where you come to maybe a big kind of bend pool and the water's really slow. And then there was other times where I wouldn't have noticed because the water was fast. What about your tippet? You might have mentioned it, but maybe I didn't catch it. Do you carry multiple spools of tippet or one?

14:15I carry multiple spools of 5X tippet just because, you know, I might catch trees as much as I catch trees. So it's not multiple spools to have variety. It's multiple spools because I might be losing some. Just nylon or flutacarlin? Yep, just the nylon tippet that, you know, we offer with some of our kits. and I just tie, you know, four to five feet of that. You know, kind of just depends on maybe how clear the water is and, you know, how much kind of length between the fly and the fly line I think, you know, I might need because of, you know, what the fish might see. And then you mentioned you carry two lines. I mean, are they the same length or do you carry two different lengths of line? I usually just carry the same length and I'll just maybe have different flies on both of them. So like last time, I like to start out with, I use our oaky fly. I kind of like big flies. And in some ways, I kind of feel like I am cheating.

15:18You know, we're kind of like being punk rock. I'm using a big fly, and I can get fish and maybe a water where there's... It's okay. Yeah, where people might fish smaller fly. And so, you know, I just, for some reason, I just like to try to do that. And then I'll just have, you know, a smaller fly on one. and just kind of depends on, you know, where I'm fishing. And if it's, you know, really turbulent water, I'm sort of like, oh, a big fly, it makes sense. Like maybe the fish can see this better than the other ones. And then if I'm fishing, I'm really still kind of slower pool. I might switch and, you know, have a small fly on. But it's really just more for convenience, I think, is why I have a couple lines. It's not really that I need them. It's just kind of easy to switch on the water. So your kit is pretty similar to mine. So a little, you know, one rod. I always carry one rod. I think it's funny when people carry multiples sometimes, but I always pick one and I'll deal with it. If something happens, it happens. And then I strap back or just a little back, keeper with line. Usually I have two lines of different lengths.

16:20One spool of tippet, some flies, and four steps and embers. Yeah, I'll take a little picture, and maybe we can post kind of what I bring to the stream. All right. What about you, Adam? Do you have anything else there, or what are you carrying? My wife has taught me pretty well because I didn't interrupt you, Jeremy. She's always like, you let me say what I have to say. Nice work. But I want to get exactly. The strap hack to me is probably the fourth thing in the rod line fly. Because it does, it really keeps me focused on keeping, you know, with me what's important. And the other day, I put my first main line into a tree, and I couldn't get it down. And fortunately, I, on just a whim, had another main line with me. So I wasn't put down, but it made me think, geez, if I didn't have this extra line, what am I going to do?

17:25and then you know introspectively i thought well i'd go i'd finish my hike out so it wasn't like i needed to fish i wanted to fish so i'm enjoying myself so do i need to add in an extra line now because one in i think it's geez what is it how many years now has tenkara been around so this is our ninth year ninth year so i'm right behind you so in eight years i've lost one main line i felt really bad walking away from it i didn't want to pull down the limb and the tree but um so i'm not too bent about carrying an extra line i carry one rod one line um like you i carry two spools of tippet because i'm steadfast on maybe the fish are uh tippet shy and gin clear thin speaking of gin cheers yeah cheers so yeah we uh i carry uh some uh 6x with me and um so i carry two spools most of the time i go i just carry 5x but the uh the the pack that i use which is the tenkara USA uh strap pack which just did a blog post about that too yeah because i find it's really important i wouldn't say anything that I don't use or not find true.

18:51I'm not looking to do anything other than to share my experiences. Well, I think the concept of the strap-back is the most important thing. I should mention, too, because it's like, yeah, the design is really good. Our friend Chris Zimmer built them, designed them and built them. He does a great job. I think just the concept of having a very small bag and if it doesn't fit there, you probably don't need it. Don't need it. That's my whole thing. Yeah. So the back pocket is where I put my nippers in the front slip pocket. I put my tippet in the main pocket. I put my fly box, which I'm a little particular about. But I carry a few patterns and and the the net is a little bit extra. Sometimes I carry a net. Yeah, what I usually tell people about the net, it's like I find that it's not one of those absolutely fundamentally necessary pieces of gear. You can fish without one, but if I'm going somewhere for the day and fishing is the goal, fishing is the intent for most of the day, which often is, then a net is really nice to have.

20:00It's just really something that makes the landing of the fish, handling the fish much nicer. but it's a little bit along the lines of, you know, my polarized sunglasses and a hat, you know, to keep the sun out of my eyes and, you know, those things that I'll survive and I'll have fun fishing with them. But, yeah, it's not as fundamental, I guess, when it comes to simplicity. And that's the other thing about gear, too. We have to kind of realize what is part of our fishing kit versus the other kit, the stuff that we're wearing or maybe carrying just because we, you know, because of different needs for the day, like a sandwich, if you're going to be gone for several hours. Or multiple layers if you're, you know, you're hiking somewhere at a higher altitude and you might, you know, you don't know what you're going to encounter weather-wise. Yeah, so every trip would be a little bit different, I think, in terms of the other parts of the kit. But, you know, mostly I want to focus on the fishing because the other stuff, in general, people can figure out. But I have seen people carrying a very large backpack, you know, because they're preparing for every possible thing.

21:02And that doesn't, you know, if you're going to be close to your car, you don't have to carry a huge first aid kit and that kind of thing. Yeah. And, you know, waiting staff is necessary for a lot of people. You know, a lot of people we talked to today, they really respond to Tenkara, that ability to have that other hand. For a waiting staff. Yeah, have a waiting staff. Well, I'd like to interject, but beyond equipment, what are the thoughts that you use when you're fishing my thoughts are simple upstream shadow off the water and stay out of the water do you like have uh rules or thoughts or things as far as simple things that go that you do when you fish yeah because i guess yeah it makes sense because simplicity like i mentioned earlier it means a lot of different things sometimes it I mean, it means minimalism. We're talking about minimalism because of gear. Yeah. But it can also mean, like, a different way of thinking about things.

22:03So, like, approaching a water. Right. Like, it can be, you know, fairly straightforward, very, you know, simple and down to the basics. I, honestly, I don't think I've given it that much conscious thought. Right. But, because I do fish up and downstream. Typically, I do like to go upstream because I can see the pools a little bit better as I go. but if I sometimes once in a while get to a water and I look downstream first and I see a couple of good-looking pools there and I just start going yeah direction yeah so that's you know like I don't think I have a rule personally on that that's want versus yeah yeah versus yeah versus like an absolute kind of rule right you know shadow out of the water as much as I can you Definitely, I think that's kind of important. Oftentimes, I'm in the trees, so I don't know how, maybe because I don't, like you're in Arizona too. You're fishing a lot out there, more open streams, I'm assuming.

23:05It's really what you want. Yeah. Yeah. Arizona has a stigma of, you know, cactus and... Oh, yeah. I was not even thinking about that. Right, right. You fished in Arizona. Well, but I've seen some of your photos, like in metal kind of streams. Those are open streams. Yeah. You fish a long rod on a three-foot wide stream. So, like, if you're fishing that. But we have roto waters, too. Okay. Tree tunnels. Yeah. Yeah. Steep gradient. Yeah. Plunge pool. You know, fall plunge pool. Yeah. So, I think when it comes to thinking about the waters, like, you know, it depends a little bit on the environment and that kind of thing, mostly. I think the only thing, it's like, I kind of roll with the punches, you know, what is the environment? The three of us are teachers here. whether we you by profession me by choice just because i write and my direction has been on the internet for so many years and people i interact and i enjoy it i don't look to be a teacher i just write but i'm forced in that position but you when you're a teacher you simplicity is a way for me to get a complex idea across to an individual with as few words as possible so that they get it, so that they learn those complex processes by not having to go into too many words or my own problems with gathering the words together for somebody to get the idea.

24:34So I just try to keep things simple so that they really understand the complex processes. and you can do that by keeping things simple so that they can develop the idea on their own in their own mind yeah yeah i think that's a good it's kind of learning by doing and i think that's what's nice about tenkara is you don't have to know a lot to get started sure but you learn a lot by then going out and doing it you know and i think that's like any good learning experience and so you know you don't want to not give enough information so that somebody's lost but they have enough that then they can figure it out, they can take it out there, and they can do it themselves, and that's really where all the learning occurs and all the complexity comes from going out in that particular experience. In Kansas, that's what the second... We were joking, it's the second greatest capital of the world. Arizona. Phoenix being the first one. Those barbed wire fences can sneak out of nowhere or those bison or cows or whatever else no I'm just joking um but I think that's one nice thing about uh you know there's minimalism from the gear you know and that to me you know personally helps me um kind of focus in and then I can kind of jump into the complexity of like oh let's figure out how to break down this particular piece of water and where might the fish you know you know be sitting here and like how do I present the fly the right way and you know it really just the simplicity helps me kind of you know get in and dig into that complexity which is fun. So let's talk a little bit about complexity for a second too and I'm thinking like part of the reason I wanted to do an episode on simplicity is because I have been noticing a lot of people making tenkara way more complicated than it has to be. For one you know the amount of gear sometimes people carry either because they feel like they need to or it's gonna add to their fishing I was fishing with somebody recently who had the whole shebang like you know the whole vest with six pools of tippet you know multiple types of typically nylon and fluorocarbon nameless flies or numerous flies I should say and carried four rods with him and that kind of thing so it's like that to me I think that's what planted the seed that's like I gotta do an episode on this because I've seen that enough times that people say like oh yeah I love the simplicity a tenkara and then they show up in a stream just totally jacked up with uh full of stuff right so i want to well people love stuff yeah yeah that's the thing they like to geek out on things well you know i think besides that i think people also like find a little comfort in having everything that they may possibly potentially you know need and there's a little it's like a blanket right yeah they kind of don't trust themselves to be creative and figure it out yeah you know i think that's part of it and and i think the main message that i want to share today if i if i have one is trying to give people the comfort to know that they don't need to carry the whole shebang kit you know best full of pockets full of stuff it's like you can actually go out and fish and do okay without carrying too much the best teachers that i've ever had as far as school goes didn't carry a lot of stuff. They didn't bring a lot of stuff. They had themselves a piece of chalk.

28:00And my, I'm old. I think I'm old, 57. You're sage. But sage. Somebody called Adam the sage. Somebody was like, hey, let me get a photo of you three like, you know, just sharing the inside joke with you guys here. We are leaving the show. Somebody wants to get a photo of the three of us. He's like, oh, the two young guys and the sage. So I'm assuming Adam was the sage. I thought they were talking about the fly rod. So for you 41-year-olds, we're young. Yeah. So a good teacher has himself, and he knows, and he has the chalk and the chalkboard. He doesn't have a lot of stuff, and he doesn't need a lot of stuff. And that's the simplicity. I think the best teachers don't have a lot of stuff. So the one thing that stuck around with me forever, which my grandfather always used to tell me as a kid, and as I entered college as well, the one thing nobody can take away from you is knowledge. you know like you cannot lose it not like that you could i guess yeah generally speaking you cannot lose knowledge and it's it's applied to my fishing too will you say that again yeah what did he say the one thing nobody can take away from you is knowledge okay yeah your grandfather told you my grandfather told you and i don't think it was the same i think it might be something that is kind of possibly widely said but yeah that's one thing you cannot drop when you go fishing I can drop my extra box of flies, you know, if I have two boxes of flies.

29:24Or I can drop a few flies out of my one box. But I cannot drop the knowledge, the skills, the techniques that I've gained. And I think that's one thing, like you're talking about teachers not caring much. It's like, well, all they need is in their head. You know, and they kind of share. That's the magic of Tenkara, though, because the first day student can have the same fun as the sage. And it's not a lot of equipment. It really comes down to efficiency. And that's what I really like about sharing that with other people, that you don't need a lot of stuff. I mean, really, you just don't. But let's talk about, because we were painting this picture of the simple kit, where we don't need a ton of stuff. But what about the complex kit? Because before I discovered Tenkara, I did have the typical fly angler's vest. And I did have multiple fly boxes. And at least one of the pockets had multiple leaders.

30:28Before you discovered Tenkara, was your fly fishing complicated? Like were you carrying a bunch of stuff? And I'm talking more about the gear as opposed to all the knowledge, I suppose. Did you find yourself carrying a ton of stuff, getting frustrated with the equipment or anything like that? Did your fly fishing ever get complicated? I'll go ahead. In the 90s, in the later 90s, I had already figured out. I was on a crash course with Tenkara. I had already written about how you only needed about five flies to go fly fishing. I had written about this stuff and I was trying to share it. And it's not that I'm lazy, but I really enjoyed the times that I would go fishing away from the car and flip-flops, surf trunks, t-shirt, a film canister with a few flies, a lightweight fly rod, and a hat.

31:30And I was already writing about it then. And it's not because I had it all figured out. that's how I had most fun because I didn't have a lot of things. All right. So before that, before you realized you didn't need to carry a lot of stuff, was your fly fishing getting complicated and got kind of. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, it really was. Because. The vest with multiple pockets. And I think the reason I want to ask that is because I don't know if it's a common journey that a lot of people have had. That discovery. Kind of discovery where you start simple. You start with your cane pole fishing, or many people might do that, or a spin rod. and then you start adding and start getting into it, geeking out and adding stuff and adding things that you think are going to make it easier. And it never really makes it easier. You start adding accessories thinking that it's going to help, and it doesn't really help. It takes it away. So I'm wondering if everybody goes, I guess, besides people that are starting off right away with Tenkara, if people that started with a journey of fly fishing always get their fly fishing to be complicated or not.

32:32I mean, Jeremy, did your fly fishing get complicated before Tenkara? No, I don't think it, I don't know that it was, it probably got unnecessarily more stuff, but I don't know if that was because I thought it was going to make me easier if it just thought that I, that's what fly fisher people need, you know, and I think a lot of people get. Which might be the same thing. Yeah, it's the same thing, but you're coming at it from a different angle. And so I think even when I was like a western fly fisherman, not that I'm not, I mean, I'll fish that way sometimes now. I mean, I don't, is, you know, I think I did always kind of respond to, you know, the kind of like local waters or the camp coffee or these sort of like experiences that were very big parts of the fishing trip or the, you know, one fly box, you know. I think I always kind of gravitated towards those anyway, and so I don't know that I was always, but I think I did always kind of add stuff that I thought, like, a fly fisherman should have.

33:34What an example of that. You know, like things like, you know, well, you know, like a vest sort of is cool and, you know, seems like traditional or, you know, the wide brim hat or, you know, the kind of multiple fly boxes because that showed you could tie a lot of flies. I think a lot of people add things in any kind of recreational or hobby that they do just because they're maybe looking, you know, because it's like, okay, this is what you do if you're kind of like into this thing. And I think that's, to me, why Tenkara is such an interesting intervention because it kind of, I think it is very fitting that it aligns with a lot of people that are just sort of like, you know, hey, wait, do I really need all these things? and, you know, like your grandfather said, I mean, he's essentially saying the more you know, the less you need. And so there's a kind of pride in that. There's a pride in kind of like relying on your other ways of getting the job done and your creativity and your kind of knowledge and experience after you fish for a while that you can find other ways to, you know, catch fish and just, you know, enjoy that process.

34:45so you know maybe it's not what i'm thinking but tell me what was the first thing jeremy that when you discovered tenkara might have seen the word i mean what was the uh the main thing that attracted you to it uh i mean just the i mean to me it was like just an effective way to fish a long rod with a light line meant that i could hold a lot of line off the water so i mean it's like that that just to me was like okay well that's just wait yeah just the effectiveness and you know and it's just as you know and just less stuff you know less stuff to get in the way of that presentation because you know that's really what it was all about was getting that fly to the place that it needed to go and the you know in the depth that it needed to get to in this particular kind of drift and so it was just it's just a great tool what about you Adam, what was the, when you first heard about Tenkara and you started getting curious, what do you think was the first thing that attracted you to it? Man, it's a fishing thing. It's, I was making split bamboo fly rods with tolerances and measuring thin strips and binding them together and, and I was doing a lot of fishing with a Stanley plane in my hand and, but I'm still a fisherman so I was designing rods but I'm still a fisherman and to go off on a tangent like today at the Sallbug Roundup all those people in there were basically there were what is it nine tenths fly tires and that's what they do and that's their their thing but I mean they're fishermen but they're really enjoying themselves fly fishing but to round it back the the the thing about uh tenkara was that it is an extremely efficient form of fishing and it stopped me dead in my tracks knowing that just with it was a progression for me and it was like the peak of the hill and i had gotten there and it was the reason why I'm fishing because you didn't need any it cut things down to the chase to exactly what you needed and you didn't need much more and you could still I could go with just three components and catch what this gentleman with 40 years of experience and his best and his multi-thousand dollar bamboo fly rod.

37:23And, you know, so I didn't need much. I didn't need to have this tremendous education. It was cutting to the chain. So I find really cool. So it was not exactly the answer I expected. I almost expected you guys to just say simplicity, which is what a lot of people say when they first started. Yeah, but why would you have simplicity just for simplicity's sake? Exactly, and that's exactly what I was thinking because I love how you guys both started. You know, like Jeremy said, like, you know, the effectiveness. And you pretty much, in other words, kind of said the same thing. But then both of you led to, well, you don't need all this stuff. You just cut to the chase, as Adam said. So I kind of love it because it brings together the two, what I often think are the two sides of the same coin. Simplicity on one side and effectiveness on the other. You know, it's, um, and on the one hand, it might be, you know, like a cause and effect thing. Like you kind of simplify things and it makes it more effective.

38:25On the other hand, it might not be, you know, it might just be a coincidence. I'm not sure. It's probably a high probability of coincidence. Yeah, I guess. But, you know, it kind of reminds me too of that. I wish I had my book here, the book that I published last year. but one of my favorite quotes um i don't even know the guy's name now because i'm blacking out what's the idea so he said that you know for for simplicity on this side you know i want to give you a fig for simplicity on the other side for the simplicity on this side of complexity i want to give you a fig for simplicity on the other side of complexity i'll give you an arm and essentially what I interpret that as meaning is like simplicity, let's say below complexity. Like when you just kind of take things out and you don't learn things, it's not worth much. You know, it's like you're not, what does it mean? Like I don't care for that simplicity. But once you kind of overcome the complexity and you learn how to take things away, but still be very efficient, then I'll give you an arm. I mean, you kind of go through this complexity, you learn those techniques, and all of a sudden you have this very simple method of fishing and it's also super efficient you know because of that possibly so there's the two different types of simplicity there is the simplistic simplicity that doesn't have much but he also doesn't have much knowledge and then there's the simplicity with a lot of knowledge a lot of skill and that's worth a ton yeah i think that's kind of how i interpreted that quote and i wish i had it with me to even quote the guy's name i'll put that on a podcast page yeah that's what happens when you drink gin tonic yeah we've been by the way we've been toasting here we've been clinking our how long are we we're at 20 39 minutes time goes by fast but we've been clinking our glasses but because they're paper cups you're not hearing it yes yes um but yeah so like yeah why usually like you know i was gonna ask like why does simplicity matter?

40:26Like, you know, do we really want to be simple? And I guess you might have touched on the point. It's like, well, as long as it's efficient, as long as it's effective, actually, maybe a better word, it might be worth it. But do you guys think that simplicity matters? Like, and what I'm thinking is, okay, like, should somebody leave their shit behind when they go fishing? Or should they carry everything that they feel comfort in? Because simplicity doesn't matter. I mean, to me, it matters a lot. And I'll kind of start with my answer. I think it's the comforts of stuff. Yeah. Really, it comes down to, you know, what are you comfortable with? And with Tenkara, it's really lightweight, low drag, high speed, straight to fun. and it doesn't mean that i want to um not carry things for not carrying them i just don't need other stuff and um eddie yamakawa in the beginning some years ago we had the comparison with uh cane pole fishing to uh tenkara and i think you know in the beginning it was seen that cane pole fishing was maybe you know less than some sort of educated fishing but it's really it's fun you're a kid you're having fun and for me tenkara is a way for me to get back to my childhood and get to be a great fisherman having fun with a few things so it's not i just don't need a lot of things to have fun some of the the best things in my life don't have a lot of stuff and it's not because minimalism it's just because the simple form cuts to the chase i i wish i had more words for it but i don't no it's cutting to the chase yeah you get to the point personally i think like i always get flustered no matter what activity it is like when i have too much stuff to keep track of um you know like i'm just gonna keep track of all this equipment and i might drop something i might forget something and before a trip right life is complex you know it's like it really frustrates me like it's just a very you know i don't know i just don't like it. I get kind of flustered when I have too much to keep track of. Now I thank God like when I pared down my kit to fit in a little pack, I got my rod and I got this little bag.

43:01And if it's not there, I don't need it or, you know, too bad. But anytime I've got, and I always, sometimes I joke that because my other activities are so gear intensive and I got to keep track of so much stuff, I love having this one activity. I don't have to keep track of a lot of stuff. And maybe some people don't care because they don't have gear-intensive activities, but I care a lot. For me, simplicity, which I'm translating simplicity right now as minimalism, to me it matters a ton just because I don't want to keep track of a bunch of stuff. I don't want to forget little things. I don't want to buy more things. It's really refreshing. It's, yeah, I save the gear for the other ones. I don't know. Does simplicity matter to you, Jeremy? Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think a lot of times simplicity is an expression of, you know, probably learning, you know, and experience. And it's not you don't go after simplicity, but you maybe arrived at it because you've learned these things.

44:03I like that. Or you've, you know, figured some things out. You don't go after simplicity. You'll arrive at simplicity. Yeah, I like that. Yeah. And I think a lot of times, you know, that's... That's pretty complex, what you just said. That is not a simple thought. That's deep. It's not complex. It's deep into two gin and tonics. That's two gin and tonics deep. And we're like muddying the water to make the appearance. This is gin clear water I'm drinking. You're right. Right. No. No, I mean, I think that's true, though. I don't think you set out for it. I think you get there because you've probably figured some things out along the way. And I think that's a lot of times why we oftentimes at shows like this, we get the pleasure of meeting some anglers that have fished for a while. And they're kind of like, this is kind of like, I thought I kind of had figured it out. And this is sort of like the next step for me is to kind of take away some of the things that I used to kind of rely on.

45:06And it's kind of made my fly fishing kind of renewed in a way. That happens a lot. One thing that I always find fascinating since we started Tenkara is that at Tenkara USA, with our customer base, we do particularly well with two groups. We do super well with people that have just started fly fishing. They think fly fishing is a school sport, but until they discover us, they didn't see a very fun, easy way to do it. Pick up Tenkara and start doing it. So the beginners. And then we do very well with the real, real experienced flying. you know like that's like the bulk of our customer base is the people that have decades of experience or the people have no experience and you know we have customers in the middle but not a ton yeah and I think the people in the middle are still figuring it out I saw that today yeah kind of they're on a complex part and they'll stay through that and maybe they will simplify things yeah yeah it's not it's not always that probably an amazing business model to not to try to get your customers to simplify.

46:10Have you spent time in a fly shop? Have either of you guys worked? I've worked in a fly shop. No, they're too intimidating to me. I don't go inside of a fly shop. So I've worked in a fly shop, and I'll tell you, it was rare that you get women by themselves in a fly shop shopping for a fly rod. And today, what was the percentage of women to men? It was pretty decent. Yeah, it's pretty decent. I mean, this is a heavy, you know, fly tying kind of event too, but especially the women that are very interested in Tenkara, you know, maybe 30%, I don't know. Yeah. It was a good number. Yeah, it was a good number. Especially considering that most of the people in the room. Super excited about that. Yeah, and let's be honest. I mean, like, to me, a big part of Tenkara is to try to get my kids, you know, it's a little easier, like, as a dad to get kids into fishing if it's just one less barrier to get them to fishing. And to get them to care about a stream or a drainage and just any of us.

47:13I mean, the only people that are going to take care of these things to be on my soapbox is if people fish them. And I do think Tenkara is a great tool to get people to care about water and to care about rivers. Do you guys ever carry multiple rods when you go fishing? No. Okay. Yeah, because I'm... It's rare I carry one extra rod. I used to carry an extra little tiny mini rod, but I don't even do that anymore. I just carry, you know, depending on what water I'll carry. But the Ito is my favorite rod. I might carry whatever Tenkara USA rod I'm carrying. That's about it. I just don't feel the need to carry another rod. Yeah, I always find that... What about you? Do you ever carry two rods? No. I'm trying to think of time. Not unless I'm with my family, and I'm just afraid I'll break one from pulling on a snag too much. I've never broken a rod. No. And it's never happened to me, but if we're on an overnight backpacking trip or something like that, I'll bring an extra.

48:17But if it's just myself, no. Yeah, I always find that. So, like, you know, talking about simplicity and equipment especially, and again mentioning the kind of the inspiration for this episode is probably seeing somebody carrying a lot more stuff than I would ever carry when I go fishing and it's you know I just find that was a funny idea sometimes it's like a just in case things break and I was like well you can learn a couple of things not to break your rod and yeah shit happens but you can always walk out if that's you know stuff can happen you can always walk out you know it's well how do you prepare for everything so you can stay out there all day right it's uh you might eat a bad hamburger and have to walk out anyways so the the extra rod thing is kind of funny to me that's uh so i was wondering if you guys ever people are passionate about that they i you know i've had several discussions online which i i do not think is uh a perfect way of looking at a community of fishers of just what's online. There's so much more besides than what's online, but there's a lot of people that are carrying extra rods just in case, just in case. Well, you know, and I think, I was just thinking about this. So one thing that I say in the book as well, and I firmly believe is versatility breeds simplicity. You know, and what I mean by that is like when you have one piece of gear that does a lot of things really well where you might have to learn a couple of tweaks to use it properly you can use it in a variety of conditions and do really well with it uh so like sometimes you have that backwards versatility breeds simplicity or is it the other way around you might be both yeah that's kind of what i'm thinking people no no well what i usually say is Yeah.

50:12It's a little bit of simplicity because, well, for example, if you have a line that is very versatile, a line that can be fished on a surface or below the surface, you only carry one line. You know, if you have a line that is not versatile, you'll have a line that is designed to float. All of a sudden, like, you have to carry another line if you want to fish it deeper fly, or if you want to fish the fly deeper, I should say. Okay, all right. So that's kind of usually what I mean. Yeah. And the rods, I think the example that I ran into recently, we get to this water, and I usually have the sator to eat with me, I mean longer rods, partly because I know I can always choke up on the grip, hold it higher. And we get to this water, and the person I was fishing with was like, oh, this is like a roto stream, you have to carry like your roto. And I was like, no, and I could kind of see the stream, it looked like, it was pretty small, but fairly open, open enough. I was like, oh, just get rid of sattu, I'm fine with it and it's like, really? You're sure? I was like, yeah, I mean, worst case I just choke up on the grip and I've got a knife with rod or stand a few feet far with it so it's like learning how to tweak things so you have a versatile tool in your hand, I think So does simplicity mean compromise then?

51:22I think sometimes it does But compromise can be seen as like the word parameter then all of a sudden it's like oh, if I have a parameter versus a compromise like parameter makes me think creatively within something versus a compromise is like oh it's a bad thing so i think it's just really kind of the way you frame that i also think one nice thing about tenkara is that you do only need kind of one hand an arm um and so for a lot of people that frees up kind of like how they approach the stream whether it's they need a waiting staff or if they need to crouch down um and you're not having a lot of line at your feet so i i think i get a little bit more stealth um than i typically would in the past and i kind of like that i kind of like that kind of you know slow approach or or really thinking about critically where i'm casting from that maybe i didn't in the past yeah no i think that's definitely very valid and i like the question too of like the simplicity mean compromise um i think to a certain extent it does and i think you know and i suppose that's kind of like one of the very important things here like i asked what is simplicity important to you and to me it's very important that i don't carry a lot of stuff that's based all on my personality like when i get to a stream i don't like to think too much about what fly i'm gonna tie i don't like thinking about where's my other rod i don't like thinking about oh it's going to work well it's Yeah, it's a lot to keep track of 10-page menu.

52:58Like, I always joke that, like, well, I always joke that I hate going to restaurants and have those 100 options to choose from. It's like I love going to restaurants that have, like, three really good options. Like, a pre-fixed menu, and I can choose one from each section. You know, give me three things that work well. But the compromise thing, so to me, so some people, and I think it's a personality thing, but some people might value no compromise. They might value having everything that they need at their disposal way more than they value simplicity. So those are the people that are going to carry five spools of tippet, multiple fly box, and multiple rods. And that's fine. And I'm not saying neither thing is wrong. I think it's just... Yeah, because we got you covered. Yeah. You can do pretty much anything you want. But I think the people that value simplicity, like myself, and for me it's like I learned that I don't have to carry a lot of stuff from different teachers but what I think I'd like to have is the people that value simplicity more than they value not having any compromise having the them understand that they don't need to carry a lot of stuff you know that's kind of the main thing so like I place way more value on a simple kit simple experience where I just enjoy my fishing experience than I do on the ability to catch every single possible fish because you know if I was going to do that I was going to carry a fish sonar and yes yeah so many flies and I'm not going to ever have the right fly anyway so that's kind of where I'm coming from I think I appreciate to me simplicity is very important yeah cheers to that clinking noise yeah exactly at this point in the conversation our our paper cuts are like uh you know they're leaking because they've held liquid too long yeah and you know and we're like 55 minutes i wonder how long our listeners are going to be bored you know the conversation but i could talk about this for a long time and i'm gonna um because you can edit i'm gonna um point this in a different direction in your you've been to how many times have you been to Japan like six or seven eight eight yeah so I've been twice and I've never had this conversation with any of the masters or experts or people that are very experienced in tenkara whether it was simple it is what it is when I'm there. And there was no introspection on why it was what it was. It's the story which you have eloquently introduced outside of Japan about the professional anglers, but there's no there's no conversation about the simplicity it's a smaller portion of the whole of fishing in Japan but anglers like Sebata-san are really badass and they do this Tenkara and it's where it came from as professional anglers in bringing fish to market how you know the the development of tenkara there is i'm gonna say it because it it's a it's different they were making money to provide for their families but the commonality in america is cane pole fishing yeah and cane pole fishing is not to me a bad thing it's kind of cool they're like so comparable right one is money one is fun yeah and in the middle though where does it meet how do those things mesh so i i'm just uh i'm exploring because we've talked about simplicity now i'd like to know what you're because you've been there so many times what are your experiences when in those conversations that you had well so that actually that reminds me immediately of the very first time I met Dr. Ishigaki and I was went to the Catskills Fly Fishing Center Museum that was May 2009 and it was a month after I started the company still definitely forming my thoughts about Tenkara really and we were doing some filming with him and he said you know like Tenkara one of the fun things about Tenkara is that it's simple so they're very aware that it's simple or I shouldn't say they're very aware, but they're aware that it's simple.

57:46There's something cool about it. Sure. But because a lot of these experienced tenkara anglers have done tenkara in a simple way for so long without having gone the complex way, they don't have that contrast. So we have to remember the simplicity, or simple is a relative term. It's only simple when we compare it to something more complex, right? Okay. So we can also say it's not the simplest way to fish because you can literally go with your hands in the water and try to catch fish by hand sometimes, especially trout. Okay, okay. So it's a relative thing. But at the same time, I always like to say it's the best way to keep fly fishing simple is to see how people do it in Japan. You know, because oftentimes we try to reinvent the wheel here or people try to reinvent the wheel and they kind of try to come up with ways that on paper might be simpler. But then they start complicating their techniques or complicating all the other stuff, and then things get kind of complicated. So that's where I usually come from.

58:47It's like those guys, like Sebata-san, he keeps things simple. He's been using the same rod for ever. He has magic, though, and he doesn't have a lot of fancy casts. He basically has one cast. I've even heard some critics in America say, He has this one cast. But he has magic in that one cast. Yeah. Well, you know, I'll share something. Hopefully, Ed Engle doesn't mind that I share. Because he might write it eventually. Ed Engle? Ed Engle. So he mentioned to me. Cool dude. I'm a big fan. Yes, huge fans here, Ed. Hopefully, he'll get on this podcast soon. Yeah. But what he said is like one of the best ways to simplify is to specialize. You know, you specialize in something or you kind of master a casting technique. He can master some techniques, and he can really simplify things that way. You know, like once you really specialize in it and you become good at it, and what comes out of that is like once you start, let's say you're into all these different types of fishing.

59:55You like dry fly fishing, nymphing, Czech nymphing, Polish nymphing. All of a sudden you have, like you gather a lot of equipment because they kind of require, by definition, different leaders. Different equipment. Yeah, a lot of stuff. So your vest has just become really heavy, and you haven't become as good in any particular category as you would if you just focused on one category. You know, so like with Tenkara, I think like a lot of us have the benefit of we focus on Tenkara, we learn how to use those tools that we have, and we become really good at it. And because we're specializing it, we're really simplifying it, and we're also becoming good at it at the same time. So that's kind of like a, kind of goes hand in hand there. But, you know, I think the main thing, it's like, if people are interested in keeping their fly fishing simple, looking at how people do it in Japan, or maybe look at how some of the people do it in the States. And if they kind of, if they value a lot of, if they put a lot of value on keeping things simple, knowing that they don't have to make things complicated.

1:01:04because I think it's too easy to see a guide or somebody who's kind of coming from this Western fly fishing background and they're used to carrying a lot of stuff. It's easy to see those people and be like, oh, I have, kind of like Jeremy mentioned earlier, well, I've got to carry those things too, right? So you look at other anglers or you look at photographs and advertisements and whatnot and you start thinking that that's what I need and when in reality, you don't need any of that stuff. Yeah, yeah. That's true. I agree, yeah. I think a lot of people would just, you know, if you really want to focus on presenting a fly to a fish, it's a great way to do it. End of story. I was trying to end it. You did it. You ended beautifully. Piss pump. And this is going to go on, and I'm going to thank our listeners for hanging on with us. this is an ongoing discussion it's personally it is an ongoing discussion well it is and it is because you know personally it's my favorite kind of conversation we have like this very philosophical conversation especially uh you know just at the end of a long day talking to a lot of people about fly fishing people i think that's a cool thing i think you know it's fun to talk about these bigger things while we're yeah and there's and i should let people know there's no freaking answers you. There's no answers to here.

1:02:30We're not giving you answers. Only questions. And I'd love to hear if any of your listeners are still on with us on this episode. Have any thoughts? If you want to share your thoughts about first of all, does simplicity really matter? What is simplicity to you? And also, do you think people are complicating Tenkara too much? That's kind of like an important one I kind of wanted to get into, but we'll leave that for a second part of this episode. Because, you know, I have seen presentations about Tenkara that just made me think like, man, these people are complicating things way too much. So that's where I'm coming from. That's where, you know, that's why I wanted to have a conversation with a couple of people here that value simplicity. But if you have some thoughts to share, go to tenkarausa.com forward slash podcast, and you can find this episode on simplicity. You can also share the thoughts on Facebook and other channels, social media channels with us. And if I can ask you all for a favor, if you're still with us after an hour and three minutes or more, leave us a review on the iTunes page, especially if you use iTunes to listen to your podcast. I'd love to have a review. Just those are really helpful to have more people find this podcast and, you know, just kind of increase the Tenkara community overall.

1:03:53So thanks so much for listening, for all the support of Tenkara USA and our products, and I'll see you next time on the Tenkara Cast. I'd like to extend a special thank you to Nick Ogawa, also known as Takenobu. Check out his music at takenobumusic.com. We'll be posting links to any references we made in this podcast, such as Takenobu's music, on our website, www.tenkarausa.com forward slash podcast. and until next time on the Tank Outer Cast